What do you believe in No#1.

[townes]

Flagg gets his wish:



What do you think or believe on specific issues.

Not what your party or favorite politician happens to be standing for at the moment--What do you believe?


Most political and social issues are complex, and deterioriate into food fights within moments of inception, but I really would be interested to see what people actually believe in, not what their "party" wants them to believe in. If people stay to what they think, and don't waste time trying to convince those who aren't interested in listening to it (regardless of where you stand) then it could work pretty well. i.e..if the discussion is....You don't know **** you rotten POS it isn't going well, if it's...."why do you believe that?......then it probably is.

I don't want to start with the election or abortion, so let's start with what should be an easy one, as disagreeing won't be too impassioned and nasty.



Should Marijuana be legal, or should it remain illegal?


I believe pot should be legal, and a marketable commoditiy, just as alcohol is. I believe their should be an 18 yr old age limit, as that's when adulthood starts in this country; if you can be shot at and executed you should be able to twist one. Stop wasting billions on interdicting pot dealers, and start spending the billions we then save on surfboards for our children, so they can get their heads in the right space.


Should the Cheeeb be legal?????


:D I believe so!

[joephoto]

Originally posted by townes


Should Marijuana be legal, or should it remain illegal?

I should definitely be decriminalized. The cost in arrests, trials, probation officers, prison workers, loss of livelyhoods (and did I mentions LAWYERS ?) is immense...Unfortunately the system employs so many people that change is unlikely.

[sir_drinkalot]

These days kids need a helmet for everything except jerking off. This is stupid. Let's put a moratorium on the helmet laws, shall we??

Pot should be legal. All you have to do is look at my pot-head friend and I standing side by side and guess who is worse off. I dont smoke pot.

[Undertaker #59]

I agree too....pretty much for everything you stated Townes....the only change I would make is to require the same age as alcohol, so either 21 or the drinking age back down to 18 (I prefer the 2nd) - 18 year olds probably drink more beer than any other age group.

But I will rake it a step further, I think all drugs should be decriminalized.

[bideau]

Well, coming from someone who's wife runs her own substance abuse agency, I say legalize everything and let the business roll in (BTW, I'm not serious).

I've got mixed feelings about this issue. The biggest problem is the misconceptions about marijuana and just how dangerous it is. Today's weed is much more powerful than the stuff from the 60's and 70's. The most common misconception is that its not addictive. With today's version, it is addictive with many side effects including permanent memory loss. One joint has the same effect as a pack of cigarettes. Alot of pot now comes with "stuff" mixed in, some of it extremely dangerous.

I guess if it was regulated, the strength and contents could be monitored. But I doubt users are gonna go into the local drug store to buy a pack of weed. If anything, I think the street business would increase because the government will not only decrease the strength, but also tax it to death.

Actually, the biggest issue today is that heroin has become so cheap that its the drug of choice among many middle class kids. And its current purity makes it incredibly dangerous (not to mention the stuff added to it as well).

My wife has seen countless lives and families destroyed by drugs and alcohol. It can be very sad and frustrating for her. In the past year, she's seen half a dozen former or current clients die from their addictions. And she's dead set against any legalization.

[spiderman]

Originally posted by bideau
Well, coming from someone who's wife runs her own substance abuse agency, I say legalize everything and let the business roll in (BTW, I'm not serious).

I've got mixed feelings about this issue. The biggest problem is the misconceptions about marijuana and just how dangerous it is. Today's weed is much more powerful than the stuff from the 60's and 70's. The most common misconception is that its not addictive. With today's version, it is addictive with many side effects including permanent memory loss. One joint has the same effect as a pack of cigarettes. Alot of pot now comes with "stuff" mixed in, some of it extremely dangerous.

I guess if it was regulated, the strength and contents could be monitored. But I doubt users are gonna go into the local drug store to buy a pack of weed. If anything, I think the street business would increase because the government will not only decrease the strength, but also tax it to death.

Actually, the biggest issue today is that heroin has become so cheap that its the drug of choice among many middle class kids. And its current purity makes it incredibly dangerous (not to mention the stuff added to it as well).

My wife has seen countless lives and families destroyed by drugs and alcohol. It can be very sad and frustrating for her. In the past year, she's seen half a dozen former or current clients die from their addictions. And she's dead set against any legalization.

I agree with this...I don't work in the field but throughout my life I have seen many peoples lives ruined by drugs. Most of them started off smoking marijuana as teenagers (luckily I did not). There nothing more depressing then watching someones life spin out of control to the point where they end up either over-dosing or committing suicide.

I would rather see alcohol made illegal (despite being a heavy user myself) before I would like to see marijuana or any other drugs made legal.

[Undertaker #59]

See, I am a big proponent of Personal Responsibility and personal freedom. Whatever an adult wants to do to themselves in the privacy of their own home, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else, is fine with me. I think its wrong to try and legislate stupidity.

[bideau]

Originally posted by Undertaker #59
See, I am a big proponent of Personal Responsibility and personal freedom. Whatever an adult wants to do to themselves in the privacy of their own home, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else, is fine with me. I think its wrong to try and legislate stupidity.

The irony of your statement is that addictions do infringe on others. The damage to the families is obvious. But the damage to society is not always so obvious. The costs in loss productivity, treatment costs for both the addiction and health issues, the cost in innocent lives lost via accidents, the costs of incarceration for countless drug related offenses (not just the illegality issues, but theft, behavior related, auto related, etc). It would be an easy issue if the user lived alone and never left the house. But the reality is that its an issue that the entire community has to deal with. Legalization solves none of that.

[spiderman]

Originally posted by Undertaker #59
See, I am a big proponent of Personal Responsibility and personal freedom. Whatever an adult wants to do to themselves in the privacy of their own home, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else, is fine with me. I think its wrong to try and legislate stupidity.

I see what you are saying, but the enormous cost and burden of rehab, hospitalization, and treatment for these people affects us all. Not to mention the public assistance monies that many of these people get, because they can't hold a job, or if they have their children taken away by the state, due to their inability to care for them.

All of these things harm more then just the individual doing the drugs.

[Undertaker #59]

I agree with both of your sentiments on the costs of rehab, etc....what I disagree with is the assumption that legalization, taxation, and regulated clean drugs would necessarily cause an increase in these problems.

Someone who is irresponsible enough to partake of any kind of mind altering chemical and then get behind the wheel of a car and kill someone else deserves the death penalty.

:)

[thomas144]

I think if civilization survives, which is something I am seriously worried about, people will look back on our era and will think of it as the time when it was actually illegal to use certain recreational drugs.

I think it is glaringly ridiculous that it is illegal to smoke marijuana. We live in a society where it is legal to drink alcohol, legal to take drugs to enhance sex, legal to smoke tobacco, legal to take certain prescription medications called "anti-depressants", legal to take medications to help kids pay attention to their teachers, legal to take pills to repress appetite BUT it is illegal to smoke a particular plant because I really don't know why.

[spiderman]

Originally posted by thomas144
I think if civilization survives, which is something I am seriously worried about, people will look back on our era and will think of it as the time when it was actually illegal to use certain recreational drugs.

I think it is glaringly ridiculous that it is illegal to smoke marijuana. We live in a society where it is legal to drink alcohol, legal to take drugs to enhance sex, legal to smoke tobacco, legal to take certain prescription medications called "anti-depressants", legal to take medications to help kids pay attention to their teachers, legal to take pills to repress appetite BUT it is illegal to smoke a particular plant because I really don't know why.

Funny how 2 people can view things so differently. I look at drug use (including alcohol, anti-depressants) and all the pain it has caused in my life and the lives of the people close to me, and somehow you think we will be a better society once all recreational drugs are legalized.

I just don't see how. It is inevitable that once legalized, drugs would become more prevalent, and attitudes towards them would relax, I just see this causing MORE problems for our society, and don't see how it would help us at all.

As I said before, I would sign a bill outlawing alcohol before I would sign a bill legalizing marijuana. This makes me a hyprocrit since I regularly drink beer, and therein lies the problem. Alcohol, as a result of being legal, has so ingrained itself into our culture that a person like myself can see its effects destroy a persons life, and yet still continue to use it.

My opinion is that one (alcohol) is bad enough, another (marijuana) will only add to the problem.

[bideau]

Originally posted by thomas144
I think if civilization survives, which is something I am seriously worried about, people will look back on our era and will think of it as the time when it was actually illegal to use certain recreational drugs.

I think it is glaringly ridiculous that it is illegal to smoke marijuana. We live in a society where it is legal to drink alcohol, legal to take drugs to enhance sex, legal to smoke tobacco, legal to take certain prescription medications called "anti-depressants", legal to take medications to help kids pay attention to their teachers, legal to take pills to repress appetite BUT it is illegal to smoke a particular plant because I really don't know why.

Tobacco should be made illegal, but the powerful tobacco lobbyist will make that impossible.

Access to prescription drugs is regulated and dispensed under doctor supervision. Most prescription drugs have enormous benefits to the individual, family and community if taken as instructed.

Many experts have advocated for the regulation of diet pills and in fact, some have been removed from the market.

We've already tried prohibition once and that was a dismal failure. But just because alcohol is legal, that doesn't justify making "recreational" drugs legal. If anything, it should be incentive not to legalize. As had been stated already, the cost to society is enormous, and we're actually in better shape than some countries. The #1 cause of death among Russian men is alcohol related.

Legalizing just adds more substances that can be obtained more easily. The only two substances that can be bought freely are alcohol and tobacco and their costs are astronomical. Why make it easier to obtain others, many of which are instantly deadly and addictive?

[thomas144]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bideau
Tobacco should be made illegal, but the powerful tobacco lobbyist will make that impossible.


Yes, I agree, but I think our program of sending smokers to Iraq to help build a democratic society there is a good one.

Conversely, I think the reason it is illegal to take recreational drugs in this country is that too many people are making too much money selling it illegaly.


Access to prescription drugs is regulated and dispensed under doctor supervision. Most prescription drugs have enormous benefits to the individual, family and community if taken as instructed.


I am not arguing that prescription drugs should be banned. I know that medication dispensed by licensed doctors is a good thing. I am arguing for more freedom, not less.


Many experts have advocated for the regulation of diet pills and in fact, some have been removed from the market.


Yes, harmful products should be taken off the market. I agree.


We've already tried prohibition once and that was a dismal failure. But just because alcohol is legal, that doesn't justify making "recreational" drugs legal. If anything, it should be incentive not to legalize. As had been stated already, the cost to society is enormous, and we're actually in better shape than some countries. The #1 cause of death among Russian men is alcohol related.


I'm not really following your logic on this one. You say prohibition of alcohol was a dismal failure. I agree. I agree that alcohol and tobacco are bad things. I guess fundamentally I do not agree that marijuana is a bad thing.


Legalizing just adds more substances that can be obtained more easily. The only two substances that can be bought freely are alcohol and tobacco and their costs are astronomical. Why make it easier to obtain others, many of which are instantly deadly and addictive?

I do in fact believe that heroin should be treated as a medical condition and distributed by the state, as it is in England (as I understand it). But that aside, I don't see the harm in legalizing marijuana, which is not an addictive substance. Tobacco is an extremely, highly addictive substance (more addictive than Heroin, I believe). For many people, alcohol is an addictive substance. For me, carbohydrates are addictive. But I've never known a single individual, or heard of one, who was addicted to Marijuana.

[bideau]

Originally posted by thomas144
Conversely, I think the reason it is illegal to take recreational drugs in this country is that too many people are making too much money selling it illegaly.

I definitely do not agree with this. Considering the tax revenue that is generated with the sale of tobacco and alcohol, I would think the government would have the incentive here. Since when did the illicit drug dealers put lobbyists in Washington?

I do in fact believe that heroin should be treated as a medical condition and distributed by the state, as it is in England (as I understand it). But that aside, I don't see the harm in legalizing marijuana, which is not an addictive substance. Tobacco is an extremely, highly addictive substance (more addictive than Heroin, I believe). For many people, alcohol is an addictive substance. For me, carbohydrates are addictive. But I've never known a single individual, or heard of one, who was addicted to Marijuana.

This would be the crux of our disagreement. If you read my first post on the subject, I'm saying the marijuana IS addictive. My wife deals on a daily basis with all types of addicts. And many of them ARE addicted to marijuana. Its a different marijuana from the 60's and 70's. Its many times stronger. Right now I don;t have time to research the issue, but I'll take a shot at it when I get home tonight.

[Annihilus]

Originally posted by bideau

This would be the crux of our disagreement. If you read my first post on the subject, I'm saying the marijuana IS addictive. My wife deals on a daily basis with all types of addicts. And many of them ARE addicted to marijuana. Its a different marijuana from the 60's and 70's. Its many times stronger. Right now I don;t have time to research the issue, but I'll take a shot at it when I get home tonight.

I'm not sure about the physical addictability of Marijuana (I don't think it's addictive - but have absolutely no proof) - but there is definately the psychological need for a lot of folks out there to indulge - which can be just as bad to some.

That being said, I think that it should be at least decriminalized and taxed if for no other reason than it is less harmful to a responsible person than alcohol is. It seems hypocritical to me that one is legal and the other is not - maybe that's just me (I neither drink (very rarely), nor smoke pot). You will have abusers of any substance no matter if it is legal or not.

[Ballbustah]

There is nothing wrong with an adult wanting to smoke a fatty, onie, bowl, bong, ect once in a while....

[thomas144]

Originally posted by bideau


I definitely do not agree with this. Considering the tax revenue that is generated with the sale of tobacco and alcohol, I would think the government would have the incentive here. Since when did the illicit drug dealers put lobbyists in Washington?


I agree that legalization of Marijuana would be a tremendous boost to our economy, perhaps an even greater economic boon than the Pentium series of CPUs and high-speed internet.

If there were any viable politicians advocating the legalization of marijuana I have no doubt that the mob would work against it. For all I know they actually do fund anti-dope lobbyists but I think they have other methods.


This would be the crux of our disagreement. If you read my first post on the subject, I'm saying the marijuana IS addictive. My wife deals on a daily basis with all types of addicts. And many of them ARE addicted to marijuana. Its a different marijuana from the 60's and 70's. Its many times stronger. Right now I don;t have time to research the issue, but I'll take a shot at it when I get home tonight.

There are lots of very real addictions that are legal. I know people, for example, who go out of their way to watch professsional football, for example. Tell me following the Patriots is not an addiction. Or playing online games, or posting on message boards. I myself have a really hard time eating just one Dorito. There was a time when playing Asheron's Call consumed my life. I know someone who lost their job because they couldnt' stop playing Everquest. I'm sure there may be people addicted to marijuana but I contend that there is someone addicted to just about any activity you can think of. Wade Boggs said he was addicted to sex, of all things.

[bideau]

Originally posted by thomas144
Originally posted by bideau
Wade Boggs said he was addicted to sex, of all things.

One of my all time favorite addictions.

Although if I ever tried to use that one on my wife, I'd be met with a 2x4 between the eyes and a court order to leave my house. I gotta hand it Wade though, he definitely made alot of married men sit up and think of the possibilities. :p

[mgoblue101415]

Originally posted by Ballbustah
There is nothing wrong with an adult wanting to smoke a fatty, onie, bowl, bong, ect once in a while....


I completely agree. I know plenty of people that smoke it occasionally. They aren't addicted and they've never moved on to the "bigger and better" drugs such as cocaine or heroine.

I think if more people lit one up once in a while the world would be a much more peaceful place. :thumb:

[Annihilus]

Originally posted by mgoblue101415
I completely agree. I know plenty of people that smoke it occasionally. They aren't addicted and they've never moved on to the "bigger and better" drugs such as cocaine or heroine.

I think if more people lit one up once in a while the world would be a much more peaceful place. :thumb:

Whoever convinces the American public of your last sentence deserves not one, but two Nobel Peace prizes. Anyone ever see stoned individuals causing a riot?

[spiderman]

"Peace, Love, Dope!"


-field of dreams

[thomas144]

Originally posted by Annihilus
Whoever convinces the American public of your last sentence deserves not one, but two Nobel Peace prizes. Anyone ever see stoned individuals causing a riot?

I was taught many years ago in my elite prep school education that the word assassin derived from the hashish smoked by islamic raiders before they attacked, suggesting violence inspired by spoking dope.

According to this online definition of assassin, however, hashish may not have been a violence-inducing drug:

assassin
SYLLABICATION: as·sas·sin

NOUN: 1. One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person.

2. Assassin A member of a secret order of Muslims who terrorized and killed Christian Crusaders and others.

ETYMOLOGY: French, from Medieval Latin assassnus, from Arabic an, pl. of a, hashish user, from a, hashish. See hashish.

WORD HISTORY: At first glance, one would be hard-pressed to find a link between pleasure and the acts of assassins. Such was not the case, however, with those who gave us the word assassin. They were members of a secret Islamic order originating in the 11th century who believed it was a religious duty to harass and murder their enemies. The most important members of the order were those who actually did the killing. Having been promised paradise in return for dying in action, the killers, it is said, were made to yearn for paradise by being given a life of pleasure that included the use of hashish. From this came the name for the secret order as a whole, an, “hashish users.” After passing through French or Italian, the word came into English and is recorded in 1603 with reference to the Muslim Assassins.

[bideau]

Here's a link to some recent testimony to congress from the director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, a part of Health & Human Services.


Marijuana and Medicine: The Need for a Science-Based Approach (http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t040401a.html)

HEALTH EFFECTS OF MARIJUANA

There are numerous deleterious health consequences associated with short and long-term marijuana use, including the possibility of becoming addicted. During the period of intoxication, marijuana disrupts short-term memory, attention, judgment, as well as other cognitive functions. In addition, marijuana has also been shown to impair coordination and balance, and can increase an individual's heart rate. Longer lasting cognitive deficits have been reported in heavy marijuana users, although these have been shown to be reversible following a period of sustained abstinence. New research published last year shows that those who engage in a lifetime of heavy marijuana use reported an overall dissatisfaction with their mental and physical health as well as their life achievement.

Recently we have learned that there is in fact a marijuana withdrawal syndrome that can last several days to a week following abstinence. This syndrome is characterized by increased anxiety, increased drug craving, sleep difficulties, and decreased appetite. It is very similar to the withdrawal that many users report after abstaining from nicotine and may explain why quitting marijuana can be difficult for some.

New research is also showing us that marijuana can affect almost every organ in the body, from the central nervous system to the cardiovascular, endocrine, respiratory/pulmonary, and immune systems. Because marijuana is typically rolled into a cigarette or "joint" and smoked, it has been shown to greatly impact the respiratory system and increases the likelihood of some cancers. Marijuana users typically inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, exposing them to the 50 percent to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke has. Also, animal studies show us that THC can impair the immune system's ability to fight off infectious diseases thus increasing the likelihood of adverse health consequences. In humans however, the overall effect on the immune system is not clear. One clinical study on short-term exposure (21 day) to marijuana cigarettes in HIV-infected adults who were on a stable antiretroviral regimen did not find an effect of marijuana on the immune system in this population. Whether marijuana exerts significant immune effects when administered over long periods of time has not been studied.

Also, we are finding that early exposure to marijuana is associated with an increased likelihood of a lifetime of subsequent drug problems. A study, published last year in the Journal of the American Medical Association of over 300 fraternal and identical twin pairs, who differed on whether or not they used marijuana before the age of 17, found that those who had used marijuana early had elevated rates of other drug use and drug problems later on, compared to their twin who did not use marijuana before age 17.

Finally, there are also some known subtle effects associated with children born to mothers who used marijuana frequently while pregnant. An ongoing longitudinal study that has been investigating the consequences of prenatal exposure to marijuana, for example, recently published results in this now adolescent aged population and found that prenatal exposure was associated with worse performance on tasks that required visual memory, analysis, and integration.

My wife, who has extensive experience dealing with addictions, told me that one criteria of an addiction is withdrawal symptoms. It's the withdrawal that causes addicts to continually go back to the drug of choice. In her personal experience, she has clients ranging from high school on up who have a difficult time getting through a session because of withdrawal symptoms. She has a couple of clients who have had their children removed from the home because of marijuana addiction. And as I've said before, this is not your daddy's pot that we're talking about. The current product has been refined many times over and is many times more potent.

I guess my take on the issue is this. I will concede that marijuana falls into the same category as alcohol and tobacco. But why legalize another dangerous and addictive substance? I believe that legalizing it will encourage its use and promote more problems. Any tax benefits would be offset by the cost in productivity and treatment.

[Flagg the Wanderer]

I'm for legalization of Marijuana. I think that if society is looking to draw a line in the sand and say "these drugs are legal and these are not" the line should be at a serious demarcation point - the point where there is a broad gap in terms of dangerousness. I don't think that line is between alcohol/tobacco and weed. It's between weed and the hallucenigenic drugs.

I think it should be heavily taxed. But I think its delusional to think that just because it is taxed the street market would increase - or are you seeing a lot of black market cigarette sales that I'm missing?

Yes, it's stronger now than it used to be. Yes, there's other stuff tossed in there sometimes. But safety would be improved by governmental regulation, not hindered.

I'm a huge proponent of personal responsibility. Pass laws against public intoxication, DUI, etc. But in your home, no where to go? Spark a bowl if that's your pleasure, and leave the paranoia behind.

This is not to say that it isn't addictive or dangerous. At the very least it is psychologically addictive (though so is, say...masterbation, and I don't see anyone passing laws against that), and it certainly has its share of bad health effects. But you know what? Same with McDonald's French Fries. And caffeine. What it comes down to is this: Legally speaking, I don't care what you do with your own body, as long as you aren't recklessly endangering someone else. Most of the "harder" drugs endanger others in a big hurry. Pot inspires...carpentry and faux deep thought.

And I agree with what was said about helmet (and I'll add seatbelt) laws - scratch 'em.

[townes]

Does it concern you that this is the third straight issue we agree on completely?

[Flagg the Wanderer]

You've picked interesting issues.

I define my politics as "pendulum extremist." I'm about as far from party line as you can be. I've yet to find any one other person who I can agree with down the line.

If I were to summarize:

I'm anti-death penalty (who was intimately involved in the Gary Sampson Killing Spree, losing a close family friend who was killed in my house), pro-legalization, anti-drug war, pro-life, environmentalist, small government former federal employee, anti-gay marriage libertarian who has very mixed feelings on socialized medicine.

For starters.

[thomas144]

Originally posted by sir_drinkalot
These days kids need a helmet for everything except jerking off. This is stupid. Let's put a moratorium on the helmet laws, shall we??

Pot should be legal. All you have to do is look at my pot-head friend and I standing side by side and guess who is worse off. I dont smoke pot.

"All you have to do is look at my pot-head friend and me " not "and I".

Why would you say "look at my friend and I"?

What grammatical rule in your head makes you use that construct? I'm not picking on you, just curious why people say this. Would you say "hey Mom, look at I"?

[Undertaker #59]

uhoh

[thomas144]

Call me a grammar nazi if you like, but if we can govern without god, can we govern without the proper use of pronouns???

I think not!

[Annihilus]

Originally posted by thomas144
Call me a grammar nazi if you like,

Ok.....Grammer nazi.

:D

[Tiger_69]

Marijuana should be legal and alcohol is questionable.

This is coming from someone that doesn't smoke it (any more) but has a few Samuel Adams here and there ;)

[townes]

Hey Tiger 69, good to see you here. i have no doubt my latest political comments will piss you off, but i am still happy to see you posting here.

[Tiger_69]

Originally posted by townes
Hey Tiger 69, good to see you here. i have no doubt my latest political comments will piss you off, but i am still happy to see you posting here. I didn't see them all but I did see the one you posted that went something like this... "as long as you're to the left of Michael Moore, we'll get along just fine"....or something like that. I thougt that was pretty funny. I can be easily amused at times.

Well, I'm the furthest thing from that but I can get along with just about anybody. I don't generally get pissed off because I don't agree with someone, even if that someone as far over to the other side as you are. I'm not a hardcore conservative, I think it's just that living in this state all my life - and watching all the liberal politician stake their claim like it's their right to be where they are and nobody should be able to take it away (can you hear me Finneran?)- nudged me to the right.