OT: Solicitation of advice

[Oedipus Tex]

Because hey, where better to turn for advise on important life decisions than anonymous strangers on an internet message board? ;)

Seriously, I'm curious how you would handle this situation:

I'm in a serious relationship right now, to the point where I went to meet her family about 15 months ago, and have been looking at rings. That's great.

Here's the situation - my girlfriend is pretty good looking, an attractive girl, and great to be around. However, my girlfriend's younger sister is gorgeous. I mean, black hair, blue/green eyes, perfectly curved, GORGEOUS. I mean she'd be in the girly pic thread if she dressed like that (she doesn't tend to.) She likes movies, sports, computer games, is ambitious and smart (a nurse), and we get along great. We have similar values and plans about family.

We talk a lot, both with my g/f and sometimes alone. We often watch movies as a threesome, for instance, and sit up and talk about them later on. She suits my personality better than my girlfriend, with the only exception being that she's a slob. I'm no neatnick, but the girl is a serious slob.

But that's the only drawback, and while I love my girlfriend, that is starting to fade into a friendship-type feeling, while I think I'm seriously falling in love with her sister.

They are great friends, only 3 years apart, and talk about pretty much everything together. I have a very strong suspicion that my feelings are reciprocated, judging by the occasional flirting (that is easily chalked up to just teasing the g/f's family, and getting it back) and the fact that I've on more than one occasion caught her looking at me, for instance at cookouts, etc.

This isn't a sudden, quick thing, either. This started probably 9 months ago now, and it's just getting worse.

Thoughts?

My thought is that I'm screwed. I can't even bear the thought of losing either one of them from my life, but I don't want to go through life lusting after my wife's sister, either. I think if I were to broach the topic, they'd have a huge blow up and ruin their relationship, and/or one or both of their relationships with me.

Help? Please?

[bideau]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
Thoughts?

My thought is that I'm screwed. I can't even bear the thought of losing either one of them from my life, but I don't want to go through life lusting after my wife's sister, either. I think if I were to broach the topic, they'd have a huge blow up and ruin their relationship, and/or one or both of their relationships with me.

Help? Please?

Wow, this is a tough one. Unfortunately, this is a no win situation.

You've got to start with situation #1. You state that "while I love my girlfriend, that is starting to fade into a friendship-type feeling". Without the sister in the picture, where would this relationship be headed? Can you picture yourself married to someone who you think of as "just a friend"? The important thing is to do what's right with regards to the current girlfriend.

Situation #2 is the sister. If you made an attempt to try to make your feelings known without resolving your feelings for your current girlfriend, it would likely blow up in your face. My gut instinct is that the sisterly bond would win out. Even if the sister feels the way you suspect, you are strictly off limits to her as long as your still in a relationship with your girlfriend.

I would put this question to you, If you discovered that the sister did NOT have the same feelings toward you, how would that change your view of your current girlfriend (as friends)? If you say it wouldn't change anything, then you may have your answer. If you say the opposite, then you still have some soul searching to do about your feelings for her.

If you ultimately decide that you can't see yourself married to your girlfriend, then at that point you've got nothing to lose. You can make your feelings known to the sister and let the chips fall where they may. If she rebuffs you, you move on with life. If she reciprocates, then the two of you will figure out a way to deal with the fallout.

All I can add is good luck.

[Oedipus Tex]

I've never held the view that there is ONE SINGLE person out there for everyone. I think that, had I not met her sister, I would have married my current g/f and been very happy. It isn't that I think of her as "just a friend," its that my thoughts are wandering, and she's just ... coming in second, I guess.

Let's put it this way: the change in my feelings about my g/f is a REACTION to meeting her sister, not something that stands on its own.

If I found out that the sister does not feel how I suspect she does...I don't know. As I say, I don't want to go through life in love with my wife's sister, regardless of her feelings for me or lack thereof.

So as much as I'm happy I met the sister, I probably would have been happier if she never existed. :banghead:

The other thing is the relationship between the sisters: I get the feeling, though I don't know for sure, that sister would probably "ask permission" so to speak, before dating her sister's ex, particularly a serious ex.

Generally, I would have to say that your first instincts regarding not basing major life decisions on the input of perfect strangers on the Internet is probably sound. None of us have enough at stake here to provide meaningful input but putting your thoughts in writing might enable you to better frame your own thoughts. That said, allow me to jump in with both feet. Here's some quick hits.


....my girlfriend's younger sister is gorgeous.

We often watch movies as a threesome, for instance, and sit up and talk about them later on.

What jumps out at me here, reading between the lines a little bit, is that you have some doubts about your current relationship or you wouldn't be thinking about anyone other than your girlfriend. I ask myself, what would Sigmund Freud think of all this? ;)

But seriously, your situation is very common. I think most people have doubts about relationships and start to take accounting of the situation when it gets more serious. If it wasn't her sister it would probably be someone else. Although, I have to say that I can remember a number of instances where I was also attracted to the sister of someone whom I was dating. I would encourage you to think about what you would feel like if you knew that she was no longer a part of your life. Try to get a better perspective on how much she means to you. Role play a little bit and try to put yourself in that situation (and hers). Is she in love with you? Maybe she thinks of you as a friend and is in the relationship out of convenience -- stranger things have happened. Only you can know that. Whatever you decide, don't make the mistake of taking it further to sort out how you feel. Figure that out first.

I am hard-pressed to offer advice on this other than to find ways to more closely understand your own feelings. But don't get caught up in intellectualizing it too much that you overlook the possibility of that threesome.... :dom: ;)

[Oedipus Tex]

Now lets not travel down that road. Incestuous lesbianism is certainly not either of their style.

Soul searching, check. On it as we speak. The only thing I can think of is that no matter which way I turn, I'm likely to end up with: A) Married to g/f, always looking back at sister; or B) Losing both of them.

[thomas144]

I only read the first message in this thread, so please forgive me if this has been covered before...

My advice is to stick with your original girlfriend. It's very common to be infatuated with one's girlfriend's younger sister.

One of my favorite short stories is by John Updike. I think it is called "The Other" (I have been searching for it online but can't find it). It's a story about a guy who falls in love and marries a girl he meets in college who has an identical twin. All his adult life he is infatuated with his wife's twin. Eventually, in his 50s, he is divorced and finally meets up with his wife's twin. He seduces her. The story ends with the line (this is paraphrased from my recollection of the story): "and in the end he realized, she was just another woman."

[BizarroAnnihilus]

I've been through two wives, myself - so I'm sure you don't need any help from me. All I can tell you is that whatever decision you make, do it QUICKLY and don't look back. No hesitation, no changing your mind. I made that mistake once and it really messed me up for a couple years (and the women I was involved with).

I've since patched things up and all is good, but the intervening years sucked ass because of my indecision.

[Hawg73]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
Now lets not travel down that road. Incestuous lesbianism is certainly not either of their style.

Soul searching, check. On it as we speak. The only thing I can think of is that no matter which way I turn, I'm likely to end up with: A) Married to g/f, always looking back at sister; or B) Losing both of them.

A classic angel-on-one-shoulder-devil-on-the-other quandary.

I don't envy your situation, but as a man married for 16 years I can vouch for the fact that you do not check your normal male libido at the door after you hear the words: "and now introducing...for the FIRST time....Mr and Mrs. TEX!!!.

You will probably continue to have attractions to other women from time to time and the craving to once again feel that special excitement that you only feel at the initial stages of a relationship will probably always be with you, but like drugs or alchohol - you can't go chasing particular buzz or it will prove to be an elusive devil. Successful marriage is a bit more of an endeavor of patience and acceptance (as you have no doubt heard) and less of a continual searing passion.

In your particular situation, my gut feeling is that it does not bode well for the future of the relationship with your g/f as a lifetime partner if you are already experiencing mixed feelings. At this stage you should be sure. Absolutely sure, for it will not get easier as the years pass. I would recommend not getting married until you can resolve this matter. Postpone things if the fog of indecision doesn't lift a little and the passage of time will make things clearer as it always does, but in my opinion you can't make a move until you KNOW for sure - one way or the other.

The human psyche is a vast and mysterious topic, and I won't attempt to probe those depths here, but if you are in fact thinking about seeing if the sister is equally smitten, then don't be terribly surprised if she suddenly turns on you like a pit bull and the bubble will burst with unparalleled swiftness. There is always the strong pull of wanting to experience that which is taboo and you need to make sure that you aren't falling into that particular trap.

The bond between sisters can be extremely deep and as you have already recognized, you could end up on the outside looking in having destroyed both relationships without intending to.

My wife has 3 sisters and they are psychically knit together in a manner that I can't fully comprehend, but it is astonishing at times.

You are correct to be searching your soul now, rather than after you are married as the stakes are a lot higher, although that is probably not much of a help right now.

If it helps, please think of the wisom of a piece of graffiti that I once saw on a Men's room wall that has stuck with me though the years: Remember, no matter how hot she looks - there is somebody, somewhere who is sick and tired of her sh!t.

Good luck Oed, time will sort it all out - it always does.

[BionicPatriot]

I would not say I am the best ever guy, as I have been through my pain and (yes once) tears over a girl. But your situation sounds alot like what recently happened to me. You see, me and this chick went out for awhile, we were a very good couple (we would always mess with each other, we could also love each other to the fullest and the trust was very good) We got along so well, everything was perfect. She was beautiful to me because of who she was and that was what made me love her in the end. I remember it started right after the ALCS series. Right after my heart broke, it awoke it an actual manner of joy.

I cant begin to tell you how much love I had for her, everything that was so special to me. But I remember, from time to time I always thought "Damn, this chick is hot and is really cool to be around" And I thought maybe this chick was not the one for me..and maybe others were. Things started turning into what they have for you as you call it. These "love" feelings that were once, so...how could you say it..."amazing" just began to fade away...feeling as if it is like a friendship where I talk to her alot. And this all began in February..the day after the Pats super bowl win. We split up because we got into a fight.

Now, for the longest time I was always was the type of "fighter" guy. I would never let **** die..no matter how hard the fight was. But this time, I did not even care. I could not bring myself to caring or wanting to fight for it. I failed to accept it, but the truth was I was Burned from the relationship..the fires of love had burned their should off and it was finally fading. Needless to say, later that night we were together again. And I thought, I am happy and all, but I still don't have that "amazing" feeling as I once did.

Later in the month..things were all normal. Than one night, we were talking, and it happened. Just as I suspected she lost interest as I thought I was. Now call me a pussy, or whatever..but this is a true story. We broke up...but this time was so different from the 99999999 times before. All those other times, I always knew it was a matter of hours before I had her back. This night, this night hurt..because I knew it..I could smell it..the death of it. The death of everything we had. And I could feel it. I learned that, I became spoiled much like you. From time to time, I thought of how I could get along easily without her..or how I am getting burned and everything was becoming "friendship" like. But boy, was I wrong.

The week after we split up, I remember her talking to a guy. That threw me through a roof. And everyday it has felt as if my heart was rotting away more and more. Sometimes I wondered was it worth it to even care anymore...about love, or anything. I was losing my will. I tried to play with fire as you could say, being cocky just as you. Eventually, as it stands today it still leaves me hurt. And thought it has barely been 3 months, the pain is still here in me. And sometimes it gets insane.

I think what you guys have sounds great. And I think you have a girl for you man. You see a chick who you think is beautiful and all of a sudden you are zoning out everything that matters. (Do you know if you could trust her, her personality?) All those are such question marks. And remember, you are really in a lose/lose situation.

Say you and your girl broke up. If you and her sis tried to get something it would piss her off and chances are she would be gone forever. A saying I live by everyday is, "Love what you have today, for tomorrow it can always be gone" And I think you really need to try and be more open towards your relationship. Or more positive, whichever sounds better. I think in a way, you want it to end because you want this girl. So I say, wait a while. See how your heart feels and WANTS. Then you can decide. Maybe you will realize you really do love this girl, or maybe you are burnt out. Time can only tell...

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by FallingAlice


I know this isn't a popular thing, especially for guys, to do. But I think it would help you do your own personal due diligence.

By the way...I recently went through a slightly similar thing and seeing a therapist was crucial. I can't give you the details, but I'm so glad I did.



I wholeheartedly agree with that. My second wife and I went to a marriage counselor and as a result, determined that we were two people that had no business being married to each other.

Not the results the counselor expected or wanted, but it was what was best for us. Needless to say I don't regret the inconvenience of seeing a therapist at this point in my life.

[MrWhite]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
This being said...to disentangle these questions and get clarity on what your heart/head/libido are telling you, I strongly recommend that you speak with a therapist.

ok, I'm tired of all this "serious" discussion, and screw the therapist..........

I say do them both.......

there, I said it, we are back in the gutter again :D j/k

[sir_drinkalot]

Marry the current g/f, take a picture of the sister in a compromising position for those "lonely" nights. No harm no foul.

Seriously Tex, If you can remember that you will never, EVER be happy long term with the female version of Oscar Madison, you may just make it. Time to take stock and be honest with thyself.

[pookie]

Wow, tons of good responses and advice to Tex, so a shallow bugger like myself couldn't add too much value.

But I will say this Tex. Take it from experience..... If there is any question in your mind (and I see there is) as to whether you should marry this current girlfriend, then don't even think about doing it. You'll spend the rest of your life wondering "what if". As for the sister, good luck with that. Perhaps it's just infatuation with her good looks and pleasing personality. My wife's sister is smokin' hot and I've "thought" about her before, but looking back I'm very glad I never did anything silly because now we have a good brother in law/sis in law relationship.

Originally posted by FallingAlice
As usual, I am impressed with the level of response from our male membership here. From a woman's perspective, I think it's pretty enlightened.

All good advice, I agree Alice.

Now Oedipus Tex, there is one thing that I failed to address with my earlier remarks. You commented that the sister is a slob, but remember you aren't marrying a housekeeper. In this day and age most women are venturing out of the metaphorical cleaning closet into other rooms of the house. Today, you not only get a housekeeper, but a cook, a lover, a babysitter and a wage-earner to boot! Just because she can't clean isn't reason to abandon ship. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. My advice is to try her cooking and get a look at a few pay stubs while you're at it. You wouldn't buy a horse without riding it now would you? ;)

[dchester]

OT,

I think this interests everyone so much because it?s something that everyone can relate to (if they?ve ever been in a long term relationship). The one thing I can say about it, is that it is very difficult to distinguish between love and lust.

As you?ve realized, there is no ?graceful? way to start dating the younger sister (unless there was a several year gap in between). It would tear the two sisters apart, and likely alienate the younger sister with her entire family. Also, it?s possible that some sibling rivalry maybe the motivation for the younger sister?s attention to you.

During our 20 plus years of marriage, both me and my wife, have had ?feelings? for some one else. One thing about our relationship, is that we actually can talk about things like this to each other. It is likely that your feeling for the sister will diminish over time, although it may not seem like it right now.

The way I see it, you have three viable options (although you know her better than any of us, so it is ultimately up to you to determine what is viable):
1) Stay with the girlfriend (while doing all you can to not to be around the sister), and determine if the feelings for the sister will go away.
2) Break up with the girl friend, if you feel the relationship is not worth saving (without telling her anything about the sister).
3) Tell her that you are troubled because you have lustful feelings for someone else (without saying who it is (at least at first)), and let the chips fall where they may. If your relationship survives this, you will know that you have something special.

If you haven?t guessed it by now, choice # 3 is the one I would be the most likely to do, followed by choice # 1. However, it?s what you think that ultimately counts.

Take care,

DC
________
volcano classic (http://www.vaporshop.com/volcano-vaporizer.html)

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by NoRespect
All good advice, I agree Alice.

Now Oedipus Tex, there is one thing that I failed to address with my earlier remarks. You commented that the sister is a slob, but remember you aren't marrying a housekeeper. In this day and age most women are venturing out of the metaphorical cleaning closet into other rooms of the house. Today, you not only get a housekeeper, but a cook, a lover, a babysitter and a wage-earner to boot! Just because she can't clean isn't reason to abandon ship. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. My advice is to try her cooking and get a look at a few pay stubs while you're at it. You wouldn't buy a horse without riding it now would you? ;)

1) She's Irish. What's that say about the cooking? For that matter, what's a good Brit like me looking at Irish sisters for, apart from typical rape and pillage? ;)

2) She makes good money, but wants to stay home with children when they come.

3) She is a serious slob - like, Mt. Laundry, dirty dishes fill the sink and countertops and I can scrape them off when I need them.

4) Problem solved. I shagged her last night while my g/f was working a late shift. Sweet.

Anyway, she ended up totally seducing ME, and we didn't even talk about it until afterwards.

Just kidding. (C'mon, I got at least one of you!)

Anyway, great responses all around. I really do love my current g/f, and I'm glad I touched a nerve and stimulated good discussion. I'm not sure where this will go, but I'm certain that it isn't going to therapy, that's for sure *little pukie icon*. What is it with you Americans and therapy? Scared to talk to friends?

dchester - I've already had the "feelings for someone else" coversation with my g/f, on both sides.

Maybe I'll just start a cult and demand that both of them be my wives...Hmmm. Who was that Mormen girl in Utah? I should call that guy in prison and get some pointers.

[Hawg73]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
[Maybe I'll just start a cult and demand that both of them be my wives...Hmmm. Who was that Mormen girl in Utah? I should call that guy in prison and get some pointers. [/B]

Ummmm, Oed - that girl was about 16. Don't make the same mistake I made when I publicly stated on this site that I wanted to bang the Olsen twins with Hilary Duff as their tag-team partner.

Somebody helpfully hipped me to the fact that they were well underage and I was pretty embarassed to say the least. I thought they all looked like they were at least 18, and just played younger on TV. Nope.

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by Hawg73
Ummmm, Oed - that girl was about 16. Don't make the same mistake I made when I publicly stated on this site that I wanted to bang the Olsen twins with Hilary Duff as their tag-team partner.

Somebody helpfully hipped me to the fact that they were well underage and I was pretty embarassed to say the least. I thought they all looked like they were at least 18, and just played younger on TV. Nope.

Naw, I'm not into that "little girly" look. Although a look of innocence is nice. Oh, wherefore art thou, Katie?

[BionicPatriot]

Originally posted by Hawg73
Ummmm, Oed - that girl was about 16. Don't make the same mistake I made when I publicly stated on this site that I wanted to bang the Olsen twins with Hilary Duff as their tag-team partner.

Somebody helpfully hipped me to the fact that they were well underage and I was pretty embarassed to say the least. I thought they all looked like they were at least 18, and just played younger on TV. Nope.

Well Hawg, I must say, I am simply disgusted by your younger tastes. With that said...you wouldn't happen to have any "videos" or "pictures" of these girls?;) :p

[dchester]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
1) She's Irish. What's that say about the cooking? For that matter, what's a good Brit like me looking at Irish sisters for, apart from typical rape and pillage? ;)

2) She makes good money, but wants to stay home with children when they come.

3) She is a serious slob - like, Mt. Laundry, dirty dishes fill the sink and countertops and I can scrape them off when I need them.

4) Problem solved. I shagged her last night while my g/f was working a late shift. Sweet.

Anyway, she ended up totally seducing ME, and we didn't even talk about it until afterwards.

Just kidding. (C'mon, I got at least one of you!) I confess, you had me going.
:doh:
Anyway, great responses all around. I really do love my current g/f, and I'm glad I touched a nerve and stimulated good discussion. I'm not sure where this will go, but I'm certain that it isn't going to therapy, that's for sure *little pukie icon*. What is it with you Americans and therapy? Scared to talk to friends? I agree, I think a good friend is better than a therapist any day.
:thumb: dchester - I've already had the "feelings for someone else" coversation with my g/f, on both sides. So don't hold out on us. What did she say about it?
:confused: Maybe I'll just start a cult and demand that both of them be my wives...Hmmm. Who was that Mormen girl in Utah? I should call that guy in prison and get some pointers. If you're able to pull that off, would you be willing to provide a transcript that I could use with my wife? My argument of 50% less house work wasn't nearly persuasive enough.
o:-)
________
Ford Flathead engine history (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Flathead_engine)

[Oedipus Tex]

Note, I'm not going to try to make this particularly readable, but you'll all get the point.

Update:

Tex is fuct. Sister came on to me in a big way. Not really subtle, to the point where I couldn't try to laugh it off, and asked her what the hell she was doing.

She backed off, and said, "don't you know?" Embarrassed as hell, a little hurt.

I told her I *did* know, but I was heavily involved with her sister, and what the hell did she think she was doing with all of this.

She said she didn't know, but she didn't want to have regrets from NOT letting me know how she felt. She was practically in tears. I asked if she had talked to her sister. No. She didn't want to start a big row if there was nothing to come of it.

I pointed out that she was, apart from sisters, essentially best friends with her sister. She started pacing, saying "I know, I know!" I asked what she expected me to do with all of this. She didn't know. She really came into it without a real plan.

Then...then it got really bad. She looks at me, up real close, and says: "Was I wrong in thinking you were feeling the same way?" Huge beautiful eyes about a foot away from mine. In an amazing display of strength, I stood up, turned around, and said, "This conversation is over." I walked out, drove home, and told my g/f that I'd gotten sick.

This turned out not to be a lie, as I ended up with blueballs like I haven't seen since I was about 12.

What the f*ck do I do now, folks?

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Yikes man - I don't miss that kinda sh!t, that's for damn sure. This is similar to something that happened to me in the past and I'm sure damn glad it's in the past.

You did the right thing, I think. Not knowing the girls involved though, I'm not sure I can give you any advice. If it were me, I'd stay status quo. If it doesn't end up working out with the one you're with down the road...who knows.

I know - not a lot of damn help, but I feel for ya.

[spiderman]

My advice:

Hook up with the sister. It sounds like things aren't meant to be with your girlfriend, which leads me to believe that when the relationship ends your only regret will be never having slept with her hot sister.

But then again if you knew my track record with women you probably wouldn't take my advice.

[bideau]

Wow, what a turn of events :eek:

First off, props for the strong will power. I'm sure many here would not have had the same.

At least you now know how she feels. But, unfortunately, you have a new set of problems.

Once and for all, you have to decide where you stand with the g/f. Reading between the lines, you seem to be comitted to that relationship. If true, this has to be made clear to little sis. There can be no ambiguity. More than likely, this also eliminates the possibility of getting together if things don't work out with current g/f (which would be uncomfortable to say the least).

But there's another problem lurking. Current g/f will likely sense that something's wrong. It will be difficult for both you and little sis to act as if nothing happened. Can little sis deal with the guilt of betraying big sis? How will big sis react if you try to hide it and she finds out? How will she act if you're upfront and tell her what happened? In an ideal world, the g/f will live in the "ignorance is bliss" world. But women tend to be very intuitive in these matters. She will always be looking at the two of you and wondering.

Not an enviable position to be in. If you were in it for just a casual romp then you'd be in bachelor heaven. But this is obviously not the case. As Anni said, not knowing the parties involved, its difficult to give credible advice. But the one thing I do think is that a followup conversation is needed to set things straight.

Good luck with it all.

[Oedipus Tex]

I'm realizing, more and more, and I guess I've known for the better part of 10 months now, that I love my girlfriend.

Like a sister in law.

This is total agony. Let's say, hypothetically, that I am able to make it work between the sisters. Just, for the sake of argument, lets say that that all comes up roses and I'm able to make the switch.

Let's go on further to say that I end up seriously involved with sister. Then what? I'm sure the REST of the family, like gun-toting papa, will be REALLY pleased with this whole turn of events, right?

And that's a best case scenario.

Sh!t.

[bideau]

OK, now you've just thrown another twist to the scenario. Now you're saying that you love your current g/f like a sister-in-law. That's not fair to her. You need to resolve this issue first, as if the little sis was not in the picture.

If you end the relationship, you need to let things cool down for a little bit. Let little sis know that there's a possibility, but you need time to sort things out. If you don't immediately jump into things, the family may see it as a natural progression from friends to lovers.

[spiderman]

Okay, let me try to relate a story. Similarly I had a college girlfriend who I was really into...UNTIL...I met her roommate. Long story short, I slept with the roommate, girlfriend found out, relationship ended, and I realized that I really didn't like the roomate as much as I'd thought.

My advice, hook up with the sister, break up with the girlfriend, and then go on your merry way.

Unfortunately you are no longer in love with your girlfriend, but I am hear to tell you that it CAN'T work out with the sister, it just CAN'T and even if it could, is she really worth the HELL that you will have to go through in order to get it to work out???

This way, you break up with the girlfriend (which is inevitable), that way you don't have to lie awake at night regretting the fact that you never took advantage of the sisters advances, and finally - you will be newly single! Which is NEVER a bad thing.

But like I said before...my advice isn't for everybody!

[DolFan]

If you don't bang the sister, I will lose all respect for you. Your g/f doesn't have to know. Jeez man. Get a grip. Bang her now while you have the chance. If you don't love your g/f, she's gonna get the picture and then you won't have a reason to go around the house. Bang her now while you have the chance. Don't let this opportunity slip by. Then, after you bang the sister, you ask your g/f if you can have a threesome with her sister. If she says yes, it's all good. If she says no, she throws you out, the sister comes and visits once in a while and you stay on the prowl the whole time. C'mon thsi is caveman stuff. You shouldn't be just learning this lesson.

[Oedipus Tex]

Let me reiterate (if I have, in fact, ever iterated in the first place) that I've never cheated on a girlfriend and I don't intend to start now.

So let's have advice starting from that premise, okay?

[Undertaker #59]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
So let's have advice starting from that premise, okay?


RUN


RUN FAST


Man, I am sorry dude. I can't seem to come up with any good advice as I do not see a way for this to come out all good. I guess part of the question may be, do you think you could love the little sister? Or are you just in love with the idea of her?

I think the best thing I have seen on here is what bideau said in that try to forget about the little sis for now and concentrate on what you want to do in the current relationship. If you truly do not feel as you should for her, break it off, but DO NOT go and hook up with little sis right away. Do some dating. Wait a few months. Keep a friendship with the little sis if she is interested. If something is possible then, make sure that it won't ruin the close sisterly relationship (in other words, after waiting for some time, get little sis to find out if its okay with big sis to date you, or if it will strain their relationship too much.)

Sucks dude.

Best is probably washing your hands of both.

[DolFan]

O.K. My final advice. This one always works. It will take a little planning and perfect execution. You have the sister confess her love for you to your g/f one night....crying, hugging, the whole bit. Then when your girlfriend confronts you about your feelings for her sister, you just stare blankly for about 30 seconds and look scared....like a deer in headlights. She will get the message. She will then cut you off from your stare of stupidity and offer her sister to you with her best wishes and even tell YOU how sorry SHE is that it didn't work out between you. This does, however, require telling the sister beforehand that her feelings are in fact reciprocated. Now this works two ways. Either the sister gives you her blessing (99.9% chance) or she doesn't. If she doesn't, the sister starts coming around and you get to bang her no strings attached becasue she can't let her sister know and you stay on the prowl the whole time.

[Oedipus Tex]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking, UT.

The bitch of it all is this:

As I said, I truly do NOT believe that there is ONE PERSON out there for everyone. I think that there are a certain number of people that you could spend the rest of your life with in relative contentment.

I really feel that I could have lived happily ever after with my girlfriend, but not always looking over my shoulder at her sister.

I really feel that I could live happily ever after with her sister. But not with all the resultant family bullox that would come with trying to make the switch.

And the thought of losing both of them out of my life puts me in a spot I can't even describe to you. At bare minimum, they are probably each two of the closest friends I've ever had. Each of them, on their own, would probably be in the top 3 or 4, ever.

And I'm supposed to just walk away?

FUUUUUCK!

[spiderman]

Okay, you're not a cheater, fair enough.

Break up with the girlfriend, invite the sister over to talk, sleep with the sister.

BUT. You have to know that this relationship will never work. Best case scenario is that you will sleep together secretly for a while and eventually it will fade out.

I just can't imagine a scenario where the girlfriend would EVER accept you as her little sisters boyfriend.

However, if you break up with the girlfriend you run the risk of the sister hating you, and then you've blown your chance.

But I understand if you have morals and don't want to be a cheater...I can respect that.

[Oedipus Tex]

Oh, and if anyone is thinking of a smartass "Quit being a pansy" or "Stop b!tching" answer, nip that in the bud, alright?

I'm seriously a mess right now. Or else I'd actually be getting something accomplished instead of posting on here so much today.

[Undertaker #59]

Let me just say, if I was in a similar situation, Oed, I probably would not have the courage to leave. I would end up in your first scenario of marrying the older sister and forever lusting after the younger. Because from what you said, I would not want to lose the good that is there currently.

Have things been weird since the incident? Or have things gone back to normal?

[spiderman]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking, UT.

The bitch of it all is this:

As I said, I truly do NOT believe that there is ONE PERSON out there for everyone. I think that there are a certain number of people that you could spend the rest of your life with in relative contentment.

I really feel that I could have lived happily ever after with my girlfriend, but not always looking over my shoulder at her sister.

I really feel that I could live happily ever after with her sister. But not with all the resultant family bullox that would come with trying to make the switch.

And the thought of losing both of them out of my life puts me in a spot I can't even describe to you. At bare minimum, they are probably each two of the closest friends I've ever had. Each of them, on their own, would probably be in the top 3 or 4, ever.

And I'm supposed to just walk away?

FUUUUUCK!

Dude you need to go to the spiderman school of being a "Loner" You sound like you NEED these women in your life to survive. That's a dangerous place to put yourself.

Maybe you are better off spending some time alone, you seem like an emotional wreck right now. No offense.

[DolFan]

just dont ever tell either one of them about patriotsplanet.com

That could suck

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by spiderman
Dude you need to go to the spiderman school of being a "Loner" You sound like you NEED these women in your life to survive. That's a dangerous place to put yourself.

Maybe you are better off spending some time alone, you seem like an emotional wreck right now. No offense.
Just need to sort this out, man.

Put it in context - I was heading towards proposing to one of them, and both of them were among my closest friends.

So, if you were in a situation in which you were about to lose a wife AND two close friends, it wouldn't mess you up?

I run with a variety of different groups of people, though I'm pretty introverted in a lot of ways. I'm a loner who's been domesticated, you might say. In the past couple years, I've been focused on building my business, and so most of my social life has (understandably, I think) revolved around the woman who is/was my future wife. It isn't like I've lost touch with my male friends or whatever, but I don't have time to do a lot of the stuff we used to do together.

Man, getting hurt is sometimes the price of getting close. But I'd rather get hurt sometimes than cut myself off from any real relationship.

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by DolFan
just dont ever tell either one of them about patriotsplanet.com

That could suck

They both know about it, actually. But as far as I know, neither has ever bothered to look except when I've been on it when their around. I think that's only been a couple times. I'm not sweating it.

[spiderman]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
Just need to sort this out, man.

Put it in context - I was heading towards proposing to one of them, and both of them were among my closest friends.

So, if you were in a situation in which you were about to lose a wife AND two close friends, it wouldn't mess you up?

I run with a variety of different groups of people, though I'm pretty introverted in a lot of ways. I'm a loner who's been domesticated, you might say. In the past couple years, I've been focused on building my business, and so most of my social life has (understandably, I think) revolved around the woman who is/was my future wife. It isn't like I've lost touch with my male friends or whatever, but I don't have time to do a lot of the stuff we used to do together.

Man, getting hurt is sometimes the price of getting close. But I'd rather get hurt sometimes than cut myself off from any real relationship.

I hear what you are saying. This is my advice. I got married after graduating from college for all the wrong reasons, and to the wrong girl as well. We split up a couple of years later. My biggest regret was not walking away sooner. However, I was stationed far away from all my family and friends, so losing her meant being alone.

So what you are saying hits very close to home. What I chose to do was to be COMPLETELY alone for 1.5 years. No dating, NOTHING. It was the best thing I ever did, I made a lot of new friends, read a lot of books I never had a chance to read, started working out again, picked up a few new hobbies, it was great. Then one night I met this girl at a bar purely by chance, with no designs on picking her up or anything. It turned out to be the girl that I have always dreamed about, and we have been very happy for a while now.

So by what you are saying, it sounds to me that, you have built your entire social life around these two and can't fathom what your life would be like without them. I am saying to you that, YES it hurts to say goodbye...but that just might be what's in your best interest.

This situation sounds seriously messed up, and you sound seriously messed up in the head because of it.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

This isn't really advice - but an illustration of how things could possibly turn out. The following scenario presented to you is devoid of names to protect the innocent. The women aren't sisters, but do know each other.

The characters:
Man 'A'
Woman 'A'
Woman 'B'

The story:

Man 'A' is with Woman 'A' for a number of years before meeting Woman 'B'. Woman 'B' is a very exciting woman, but Man 'A' is committed to Woman 'A' - therefore decides to tell Woman 'B' that it's not fair to any party involved that anything happen between them, so it ends up going nowhere. In the meantime - Woman 'A' finds out about Woman 'B'. She's not too happy about the situation, but after initial consternation, everything smooths out.

Soon Man 'A' and Woman 'A' move away from woman 'B'. A couple of years later, Man 'A' and Woman 'A' drive each other f*ckin' nuts and split apart.

A couple of months after that Man 'A' and Woman 'B' discover they are both 'available' and hook up. This is now almost three years between the last hook up and present date. A few months later, Woman 'B' moves in with Man 'A'.

Man 'A' is now in love with Woman 'B' (and likewise presumably) and Man 'A' is better friends now with Woman 'A' than he ever was when they were together.

BTW - Woman 'A' is happily with another dude now.

One wrinkle in your story is the sisters angle - which makes it another story all together I guess. Which makes my story probably of absolutely no help to you whatsoever. I guess I'm the a-hole that is telling you that things will be alright eventually.

It sucks not to be able to help a fella out - wish there was more we could do for ya...

:rolleyes:

[patsRmyboys]

The "switch" "eh? You realize you're venturing into uncharted waters...(sorry, I couldn't resist the Seinfeld reference)

[DolFan]

just tell it like it is. Tell your g/f that you are in love with her sister and that you know that she is in love with you. All this sneakin around getting advice aint gonna help nothin. Just tell your g/f. Sit her down and tell her. You aint gonna marry her because you know you'll be miserable. She can't be mad becasue you told her the truth. Let the sisters work out their feelings for each other. If she has feelings for you and is decent, she will want you and her sister to be happy. Heck, she'll end up planning the wedding. This is your moment of truth. It's time to stand up and be a man. If you can't tell your girlfriend something as serious as that you are in love with her sister, the marriage wouldn't last anyways. Just get real drunk first.

[spiderman]

Originally posted by DolFan
just tell it like it is. Tell your g/f that you are in love with her sister and that you know that she is in love with you. All this sneakin around getting advice aint gonna help nothin. Just tell your g/f. Sit her down and tell her. You aint gonna marry her because you know you'll be miserable. She can't be mad becasue you told her the truth. Let the sisters work out their feelings for each other. If she has feelings for you and is decent, she will want you and her sister to be happy. Heck, she'll end up planning the wedding. This is your moment of truth. It's time to stand up and be a man. If you can't tell your girlfriend something as serious as that you are in love with her sister, the marriage wouldn't last anyways. Just get real drunk first.

This sounds great in theory...

BUT:

If you tell this chick that you are in love with her sister you run the risk of her a.) attacking you with a knife b.) burning all your clothes c.) vandalizing you car...

This is some seriously dangerous territory...you need to be careful.

[DolFan]

The truth always works. You can always turn it around and say "Look you always wanted me to be honest with you". You haven't done anything with the sister, so you have taken the high road. She already knows youre hot for her sister anyways. This won't come as a surprise to her and you can always say that you were honest. If you really look at the big picture, that would be the best thing. The only one you have a chance to married to AND be happy with is the sister. Honesty. The truth shall set you free brother!!!!!!!!!!!

[BizarroAnnihilus]

God I hate to agree with dolfan...

but he's got a point.

You could take a large gamble and tell the current girlfriend that you have feelings for her sister, but since you are seeing her that you couldn't see her sister because that would be wrong.

Tell her that you don't feel like you can see either of them in good conscience because of the situation. Tell the sister the same thing.

After some time without seeing either of them (a month? more?), the current g/f may be more prone to letting you see her sister without causing a large fuss. The longer the break without seeing either, the better...

...just throwing sh!t against the wall oed...some of it might stick sooner or later...

[DolFan]

Just make sure her mom doesn't want you too before you go through all of this.

[Spinal Tap]

Hey man, I realize that this is of no help to you at all. However, I just have to add my 2 cents. It's always been a dream of mine to have a 2 on 1 with a pair of sisters. I've never had the opportunity myself, but it sounds like the remote possibility is there for you. I guess what I'm trying to do is live vicarously through you, hoping that if you do engage in a 2 on 1, you'd tell me all about it.

On a serious note, you're definately in a tough spot. I noticed that you did say that the current g/f is attractive, but her sister is smokin hot. Is that a significant part of your attraction towards the sister? If so then just let it go. I try to live by a motto that all men should live by: "No matter how hot she is, somebody.....somewhere......is sick of her sh*t."

There, try that.

[WY-Oregasm]

and therapists who are BILLS fans are unthinkable!

Hawg,

You make me laugh and want to have a beer with you sometime.


OK, lmao at DolPHannY and the rest of you yahoos trying to minimiZe this situation with comedy. It is funny, but dangerous.

I think it was dchester (too laZy to look) who threw in a little "sibling rivalry" as a possible motive for SexySister's interest in you? Tex, you better take a good look at SisterSexy and what she is up to here.

Any sister that would do that to her sister's fiance has SERIOUS issues. Good grief, not to be offensive in any way but this is NOT the first time this situation has ever happened before. SisterSexy is psycho.

Unless your girlfriend is in on this (and it doesn't sound like she is), her sister is crossing an inappropriate boundary that she will continue to cross until someone NAILS her lying, cheating ass to the wall (verbally). Um, really I don't want to be disrespectful here..... but I smell something really rotten in this family dynamic. Let's just say that your g/f sister's behavior raises a LOT of red flags for me as a therapist.

Also, your sexual attraction to her is interfering with your ability to see that she has SERIOUS issues. You are NOT being objective about her behavior. Understandable, get your 'head' out of her pants long enough to see what this woman is doing.

Would you REALLY want to spend your life with someone who would do THAT to her own sister? I mean good grief, emotionally HEALTHY people show self restraint in those types of situations. YOU showed restraint in your response. SHE did not. YOU showed an emotionally appropriate and healthy response. SHE did NOT.

This has the potential to turn into a psychodrama of major proportion, all by her design. If you are serious about wanting to resolve this, I would sit BOTH sisters down, tell your GIRLFRIEND what happened with SEXYdramaQueen, RN right there to answer for her behavior. You risk losing NOTHING by blowing the whistle on SEXYdramaQueen, RN and you get this all out in the open.

The truth shall set you free one way or the other. No matter WHAT happens, you owe it to your girlfriend to blow the whistle on her sister's behavior. There is some REASON why this sister would behave that way and you are a victim of a bigger problem.

Good luck.

[DolFan]

wyobilzfan, are you gay?

Dude, bang the sister. What could it hurt. You aint gonna marry either of them. Get it while you can. If you tell her that her sister has been coming on to you, it's gonna turn out to be your fault. You're in a corner man, bang your way out.

[spiderman]

wyo...I think you missed the point where oed said he wants the sister...he's thinks he's in love with her and wants to make the switch .

[WY-Oregasm]

I didn't miss what Tex said. If he's IN LOVE with the SisterHotPants, then he is in serious trouble. She has serious emotional problems if she is behaving that way toward her sister's boyfriend.

He's NOT in love with her, he's in love with his IMAGE of her. One that is NOT based in reality from what I'm reading.

As previously mentioned, do NOT misinterpret the difference between love and lust. This sister has psychoqueen written all over her. Been there, done that, worked with hundreds of them.

[spiderman]

Originally posted by wyobilzfan
I didn't miss what Tex said. If he's IN LOVE with the SisterHotPants, then he is in serious trouble. She has serious emotional problems if she is behaving that way toward her sister's boyfriend.

He's NOT in love with her, he's in love with his IMAGE of her. One that is NOT based in reality from what I'm reading.

As previously mentioned, do NOT misinterpret the difference between love and lust. This sister has psychoqueen written all over her. Been there, done that, worked with hundreds of them.

Oh I agree, I was only making the point because he expressed a serious affection for the girl and made the point that he does not want to work it out with his girlfriend.

Which is why I say, break up with the girlfriend that you obviously aren't in love with, and give the sister what she wants.

You don't want to marry your girlfriend and you don't want to marry the type of girl who would sleep with her sisters boyfriend behind her back no matter how she felt about him.

[Hawg73]

Originally posted by DolFan
wyobilzfan, are you gay?

Dude, bang the sister. What could it hurt. You aint gonna marry either of them. Get it while you can. If you tell her that her sister has been coming on to you, it's gonna turn out to be your fault. You're in a corner man, bang your way out.

While I like the last one-liner, DF - you should realize that Wyo is a woman.

Note that she is also a therapist, so unless you want her analyzing why you cry at Flipper reruns, then you best lighten up on the gay stuff.

[DolFan]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
slowly reintroduce yourself into her sister's life. Get to know her. Hell, sleep with her if you like,

that's what ive been sayin.

you arent gonna marry your g/f because you love her sister. You arent gonna marry the sister because you love the g/f. You have to do the manly thing and sleep with her sister until you get caught. Problem solved. If there is ANY possible way to get them both at the same time, don't let that slip by. You may only get the chance once and you have to pounce on it. See if you can get her sister to walk in on you. That's a great ice breaker. Then just invite her on in. You have to take complete advantage of thsi situation. What one sees as a problem, I see as a very rare opportunity that could only be eclipsed if they were twins. For all mankind, I implore you, DON'T SCREW THIS UP

[DolFan]

My apologies for the gay thing. Won't happen again.

[Hawg73]

I hate to say it, but....DolFan is starting to make sense to me too.

That must be some kind of warning sign. Just kidding, DF, you're all right with me.

All I know for sure is - it sucks to be Oed and you woudn't catch me dead telling him to dump the g/f at this point.

Much as the "appreciates a good car wreck" side of me wonders what would happen.

As I stated earlier, I think Lil' Sis will turn on you like Tiger Woods hacking a ball out of the deep rough once you say the magic words.

She might very well be engaging in the most dangerous game - that of the siren whose calling is to lure unsuspecting sailors to their doom.

Remember the Seinfeld episode where his date was beautiful/ugly/beautiful/ugly? It happens.

And there's nothing like a little Stevie Ray Vaughan at a time like this:

What about the neighbors?
What they gonna say?
Stop little sister - gettin' carried away
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey
look at little sister
I said hey, hey, hey, hey
look at little sister

Shakin' like a tree
Rollin' like a log
Shakin' and a rollin' now
and that ain't all

[dchester]

OT,

I have a few thoughts. How accurate they are, who knows?

First, I want to commend you on your discipline with the sister. I don't know if I would have been able to have the same control. As Chris Rock once said, men can be taught to stop chasing after women (after much behavior modification), but when a women is chasing after you, it's a race a guy will lose every time (i.e guys are pretty easy).

My suspicion is that your feelings for the sister, is more lust than love. I do believe that you still love your girlfriend, it's just that you have stopped feeling lust for her. In my opinion, when a guy is "In Love" with a girl, it's actually the combination of those two feelings (Love and Lust). This is why I believe that you say you love your girlfriend like a sister in law. You do love her. The real question is, will you ever feel lust for her again? My guess is that you can, although it would be easier if you get away from the sister. All of this stuff I just said is nice, but what you really want to know is, what to do next.

At this point, I think you should tell the girlfriend what the sister did, regardless of what your decision is on who you want to be with. She deserves to know about her sister, and her reaction may give you some hints about your relationship with her.

If you decide to go for the sister, you can simply tell the sister that you do have feelings for her, but you didn?t act on them because it wasn?t the right thing to do. Actually, I think that?s what you should have told her when she came on to you.

I still have some skepticism about the sister?s motives. I also don?t have a good feel yet about your compatibility with the sister. And as I said before, I?m not at all convinced that you really love the sister, as I suspect it is mostly lust (with maybe a little love). But since it is your opinions that are paramount, and not mine, I will offer some thoughts on what I would want to know, in order to decide if it is worth going after the sister.

Are you confident, that both you and the sister can deal with the likelihood, of it producing hatred from your girlfriend (towards you and her sister) if you leave your girlfriend and start dating he sister? Are you sure that you will never again have feelings of lust for your current girlfriend? How well do your long term goals fit in, with the long term goals of the sister?

In all seriousness, lust when acted upon, is overpowering, consuming, and persuasive (i.e. pretty damn good). It?s just that it rarely lasts for the long term (love does that). Also, most guys can and do feel lust for many different women. Remember, us guys don?t think clearly when under the influence of lust.

My current opinion is that your relationship with your girlfriend is still worth making a go of it. You?ve been honorable with her so far, so I disagree that you are ?fuct?. In fact, because you?ve played it so well thus far, all options are still available to you.

Also, I have a question for you. A while back, you said that you've already had the "feelings for someone else" conversation with your g/f, on both sides. What did she say, and also what did you mean by "on both sides"?

Take care, and keep us posted.

DC
________
Yamaha XZ 550 (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_XZ_550)

[WY-Oregasm]

There's a lot of wisdom being shared in these posts.


Hawg, I love that song.


BTW, I also see great value in the "bang 'em both, then hit the bricks scenerio". It just doesn't seem like Tex is the male HOAR type:eek:

Any guy who went through what Tex just did and maintained control is to be commended for his self-restraint.

It still could turn out that both sisters are looking for a threesome and checking him out.

BTW, whoever it was earlier in this thread that wanted details if there was a threesome cracked me up.

[Oedipus Tex]

Okay, I'm gonna just answer the last post, because I think it will reply to most of the questions/comments:
Originally posted by dchester
[B]OT,

I have a few thoughts. How accurate they are, who knows?

First, I want to commend you on your discipline with the sister. I don't know if I would have been able to have the same control. As Chris Rock once said, men can be taught to stop chasing after women (after much behavior modification), but when a women is chasing after you, it's a race a guy will lose every time (i.e guys are pretty easy).

My suspicion is that your feelings for the sister, is more lust than love. I do believe that you still love your girlfriend, it's just that you have stopped feeling lust for her. In my opinion, when a guy is "In Love" with a girl, it's actually the combination of those two feelings (Love and Lust). This is why I believe that you say you love your girlfriend like a sister in law. You do love her. The real question is, will you ever feel lust for her again? My guess is that you can, although it would be easier if you get away from the sister. All of this stuff I just said is nice, but what you really want to know is, what to do next.
I'll break in here. I mentioned WAAY back in my original post, that Sister would be a candidate for the girly pic thread if she dressed like that. She doesn't. She doesn't act like that, either. My original (new) post wasn't real clear on what happened the other night. She didn't start rubbing her breasts up and down me or anything, just started talking in terms of why G/F and not Sister? Joking at first, and getting more and more serious as she went along.

In contrast to what WYO said, she's anything but a drama queen. She hangs around with us a lot, because the three of us are all great friends together. She's not coming on like a succubus, she's coming on like a confused young woman who is terrified of missing out on "the one." I think she's sincere.

I am *absolutely* in lust with sister. I'm also very much in love with her. I love my girlfriend, but its as if the three of us, together, are taking the wrong roles.

Someone mentioned that G/F knows that I have the hots for her sister. I think a betrayal on that level is utterly beyond her comprehension, frankly. I don't think she has clue.[/QUOTE]

At this point, I think you should tell the girlfriend what the sister did, regardless of what your decision is on who you want to be with. She deserves to know about her sister, and her reaction may give you some hints about your relationship with her.
Well, I'm certainly not going to throw Sister under the bus like that. If and when I do go to my g/f, it will be in terms of explaning the situation as a whole, not "lookit what yer sister did!" I'm not out to save my ass, here, I'm trying to save several very important relationships.

If you decide to go for the sister, you can simply tell the sister that you do have feelings for her, but you didn’t act on them because it wasn’t the right thing to do. Actually, I think that’s what you should have told her when she came on to you.
I have a natural ability to avoid burning bridges whenever possible. My reaction avoided dictating my future conduct and limiting my choices. Perhaps you're right, but: a) I was very confused, and didn't have a ton of time to consider the perfect response; and b) that's something I can't take back once it's said. That would always be out there. I still have the ability to put it out there if I choose to do so after some consideration.

I still have some skepticism about the sister’s motives. I also don’t have a good feel yet about your compatibility with the sister. And as I said before, I’m not at all convinced that you really love the sister, as I suspect it is mostly lust (with maybe a little love). But since it is your opinions that are paramount, and not mine, I will offer some thoughts on what I would want to know, in order to decide if it is worth going after the sister.
Totally aside from being smoking hot (think along the lines of Eliza Dushku, except with bright blue/grean eyes and an air of innocence rather than just smoldering, except a little bit shorter with slightly larger [at least proportionatly] breasts) we are very compatable.

She, like me, is interested in learning, finding quality charities, raising a large family, high-end fantasy novels, philosophy and comparative theology, and has similar taste in music and movies. Hell, she even likes football, to the point where she started looking at some of my football strategy books, saying things like: "This is like chess with people!" If it weren't for the slobbiness thing, she'd almost literally have been custom made for me, like I ordered her out of a magazine.

Are you confident, that both you and the sister can deal with the likelihood, of it producing hatred from your girlfriend (towards you and her sister) if you leave your girlfriend and start dating he sister?
No. And really, that's it in a nutshell. G/F's reaction could be anything from acceptance and support to going absolutely nuclear and terminating contact with either of us...or both. And, as I stated before, even if we clear that hurdle, what of the rest of the family, whom I've grown very close to?

Are you sure that you will never again have feelings of lust for your current girlfriend?
Never say never, but I really don't think this is a "grass is greener" issue.
How well do your long term goals fit in, with the long term goals of the sister?
I addressed this above, I think. Very well.

In all seriousness, lust when acted upon, is overpowering, consuming, and persuasive (i.e. pretty damn good). It’s just that it rarely lasts for the long term (love does that). Also, most guys can and do feel lust for many different women. Remember, us guys don’t think clearly when under the influence of lust.
Very true. But remember that this isn't a day, or a week, or even a month...we're pushing a year now. I can't maintain a yearlong erection, can you?

My current opinion is that your relationship with your girlfriend is still worth making a go of it.
That's the pisser of all of this, really. It absolutly is, taken on its own merits. I'm quite certain I'd be very happy with her, if I'd never met her sister.

You’ve been honorable with her so far, so I disagree that you are “fuct”. In fact, because you’ve played it so well thus far, all options are still available to you.
Does that include the polygamous marriage and cult-forming? I'm still strongly leaning in that direction.

Also, I have a question for you. A while back, you said that you've already had the "feelings for someone else" conversation with your g/f, on both sides. What did she say, and also what did you mean by "on both sides"?
Well, this isn't a new relationship, man. We've discussed what we've done when feelings arose for someone else. We agreed that it is pretty natural, and that fidelity takes discipline and commitment. You have to *want* to be faithful more than you want to check out that excellent looking grass in the other pasture.

When I say "on both sides" I mean that we've talked about it in terms of both me having feelings for another girl, or her having feelings for another guy.

We have a system, and have turned the whole "feelings for someone else" thing into a kind of game, I guess. We introduce them. It's happened twice so far, once on each side. You know my caustic sense of humor, right? She has one, too (they both do, actually, and its funnier from them because they are so sweet that it is a shocker coming out of their mouths).

So, of course what happens is that once "the other" leaves, G/F (for my crush) or me (for her crush) proceeds to tear "the other" person to shreds with petty little things. We've talked about this, and we know that if the shredding pisses us off, that's officially a Bad Sign, as Christopher Robin might say. But in both cases, we've just ended up laughing at the other person's flaws, and pointing out how crazy that would drive whichever one of us is on the spot.
I just re-read that and realized how bad it sounds. Don't think we're evil or anything...one of them (my crush) actually ended up as a friend of both of ours over time. It's just our method of knowing one another and checking our stupid ideas at the door.

Which leads me to this: I know that G/F adores and respects her kid sister. She wouldn't have much to latch onto. I also think she'd actually be really jealous, and I'd be pissed at any shredding she managed to do (apart from the slob stuff). It would be a Bad Sign.

This whole thing is a Bad Sign.

Take care, and keep us posted.
Will do.

One other thing I wanted to address: someone (WYO?) used the phrase "unless your girlfriend is in on it." What did you mean? A setup? A test? A really, really horribly cruel practical joke?

I have a really difficult time believing that.

Sh!t, I'm not sure I CAN believe that. It's like believing in the Matrix, in terms of how it would turn my world upside down. It would mean that: a) Sis doesn't really love me like that; and b) both of them are seriously cruel people

[Undertaker #59]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Why that's so crazy it might just work!!
Only on PatriotsPlanet could one of our posters argue that there's a moral imperative compelling a board member to engage in an incestuous three-way and yet not either have the thread a) banned or b) immediately have said thread transferred to..."Everything but Patriots Football" or "Around the NFL."


Not to make light of your situation Oed, but this is why I love PatriotsPlanet. Where else are you going to find a Dolphins troll and a Bills therapist giving relationship advice to a British Texan Patriot fan in love with sisters??

But I am starting to think you are right Oed. The perfect resolution would be to move to Salt Lake City :)

[bideau]

Originally posted by Undertaker #59
Not to make light of your situation Oed, but this is why I love PatriotsPlanet. Where else are you going to find a Dolphins troll and a Bills therapist giving relationship advice to a British Texan Patriot fan in love with sisters??

But I am starting to think you are right Oed. The perfect resolution would be to move to Salt Lake City :)

This site has the makings of a reality series.

BTW, polygamy is illegal in Utah. You'd probably have to go to an arabic country.

[Undertaker #59]

Originally posted by bideau
This site has the makings of a reality series.

BTW, polygamy is illegal in Utah. You'd probably have to go to an arabic country.

I know, but that's where its practiced most anyway in this country anyway ;)

[WY-Oregasm]

here's some fly-by thoughts:

First, I've worked with dysfunctional families for years. Literally thousands. I'm just sharing some observations that I've made over the years in dealing with situations very similar to what you are describing.

Um, yes. Believe it or not this is NOT an uncommon situation. It happens far more frequently than most people realiZe.

With all due respect for this SISTERperson, she may be the nicest most sincere person in the world, but that still doesn't change the fact that she has ALLOWED herself to indulge in going places where she has NO business going. PERIOD.

She has basically sabatoged her sister's love relationship. She played a POWER MOVE on her sister, and that I can assure you could have life-long consequences. Now WHY she would do such a thing is really the interesting question here. She may not have INTENTIONALLY done this, but that in essence is EXACTLY what has happened.

I'm not trying to be offensive here, but as far as two sisters playing someone along for a ride, yep I've seen that plenty of times too. I have no idea what these two women are like, but I can tell you that most sisters wouldn't take too kindly to this sort of thing, let along family as collateral damage.

LOL... no offense but when you can't control the hard-on you get around SisterDearest, I doubt whether you are REALLY in an OBJECTIVE position to assess what this woman's subconscious motives are....

If she is as attractive as you describe, there is NO WAY that you can have ANY objectivity in assessing her character. Nope. Ain't buying that one.

I won't go into the details, but suffice it to say that when you are considered to be that "hot", you deal with this kind of stuff all the time. Seriously. From everywhere; family, friends, and perfect strangers.

When a woman has that effect on men (I highly doubt you're the only guy who finds her uber-attractive), she also has a responsibility IMO to manage it properly. There are ways to say NO and NOT GO THERE in certain situations, and she had NO business allowing herself to indulge in this fantasy game with you.

If a woman who looks like SisterHottie is hanging out with her sister's boyfriend when she should be finding a relationship of her own, there are issues. Issues she needs to get resolved. Why would she do this to her sister? And YES, she did THIS to her sister.


Tex, I know that you are going to rationaliZe why your situation is so DIFFERENT than what I'm describing here. But trust me on this one, there's a stinker in the pile here somewhere.

You seem like a nice guy in a bad as* situation. The unfortunate reality is that it can now never be what you wanted it to be no matter how this shakes out.

This is definitely one of those :banghead: situations in life because no matter WHAT happens, you can't recapture what you had before all the complications came along.

But I do have to chuckle at DOLLyFaN because there really is some great merit in chucking all the thinking and banging them both!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Stay the course, man. Just be the man who you are and all will work out. Just be careful as you go and this will all work itself out for the best. Even if that "best" changes things, it will get resolved and you can move on, having learned some valuable lessons along the way.

Beware of lurking hottiesisters!!!!

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Wyo - are you sure you're a billz fan? Your advice is a bit too sound....

:D

Seriously though, you wrote some good stuff. I've been the therapist route and am glad I did it.

[spiderman]

Originally posted by wyobilzfan
here's some fly-by thoughts:

there really is some great merit in chucking all the thinking and banging them both!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...



Any therapists that gives out this kind of advice is A-OKAY in my book!!!

[Spinal Tap]

Don't just bang both of them. Bang both of them together! How cool would that be!!!???

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by wyobilzfan
[B]here's some fly-by thoughts:

First, I've worked with dysfunctional families for years. Literally thousands. I'm just sharing some observations that I've made over the years in dealing with situations very similar to what you are describing.

Um, yes. Believe it or not this is NOT an uncommon situation. It happens far more frequently than most people realiZe.

With all due respect for this SISTERperson, she may be the nicest most sincere person in the world, but that still doesn't change the fact that she has ALLOWED herself to indulge in going places where she has NO business going. PERIOD.

She has basically sabatoged her sister's love relationship. She played a POWER MOVE on her sister, and that I can assure you could have life-long consequences. Now WHY she would do such a thing is really the interesting question here. She may not have INTENTIONALLY done this, but that in essence is EXACTLY what has happened.
Let me play devil's advocate here.

On the other hand, she also waited several months to make sure that this wasn't just a fling, or a passing interest. As a therapist, your position is that if a guy dates a girl seriously, he essentially can NEVER date that girl's sister under any circumstances?

In my opinion, Sister really took a huge chance in showing her hand. She adores her sister, and losing that relationship would really mess her up. Why would she risk it? She's not crazy, or even very impetuous - she's a very thoughtful person in general.

I'm not trying to be offensive here, but as far as two sisters playing someone along for a ride, yep I've seen that plenty of times too. I have no idea what these two women are like, but I can tell you that most sisters wouldn't take too kindly to this sort of thing, let along family as collateral damage.
Totally understood. I have a very hard time believing that they are putting me on, knowing them as well as I do. The risk of that collateral damage is a huge part of the reason I think she's sincere.

LOL... no offense but when you can't control the hard-on you get around SisterDearest, I doubt whether you are REALLY in an OBJECTIVE position to assess what this woman's subconscious motives are....
Now listen, it isn't like that. I'm around her a lot, and it isn't like I spend all my time with a raging woody. But I've been fighting with myself about this girl for the better part of a year, and she came on pretty strong. I had a long drive home, and a lot of time to think about all the different places that could have gone.

I'm not saying I'm objective. But this isn't "The O.C." or "90210," here. These women aren't whoring around, or just horny.

If she is as attractive as you describe, there is NO WAY that you can have ANY objectivity in assessing her character. Nope. Ain't buying that one.
Fair enough. But suffice it to say that I know her pretty well.

I won't go into the details, but suffice it to say that when you are considered to be that "hot", you deal with this kind of stuff all the time. Seriously. From everywhere; family, friends, and perfect strangers.

When a woman has that effect on men (I highly doubt you're the only guy who finds her uber-attractive), she also has a responsibility IMO to manage it properly. There are ways to say NO and NOT GO THERE in certain situations, and she had NO business allowing herself to indulge in this fantasy game with you.
If I'm right, though, it isn't a "fantasy game." She's trying to prevent someone who she sees as perfect for her from being out of reach forever. That isn't even a possibility in your mind?

If a woman who looks like SisterHottie is hanging out with her sister's boyfriend when she should be finding a relationship of her own, there are issues. Issues she needs to get resolved. Why would she do this to her sister? And YES, she did THIS to her sister.
She's had 3 different boyfriends, the longest lasting about 4 months, since I've known her. She's gone on dates with maybe 5 additional guys, and it went nowhere. G/F and I are sort of her "default." She has an active social life.

Tex, I know that you are going to rationaliZe why your situation is so DIFFERENT than what I'm describing here. But trust me on this one, there's a stinker in the pile here somewhere.
Look, you may be right. I might be too close to the situation to see it clearly. But I don't see it as you describe. I think the straight up facts of this paint a worse picture in terms of connotation, than actually exists. I think people are automatically comparing it to something they see on TV, or in movies, or read in books.

You seem like a nice guy in a bad as* situation. The unfortunate reality is that it can now never be what you wanted it to be no matter how this shakes out.

This is definitely one of those :banghead: situations in life because no matter WHAT happens, you can't recapture what you had before all the complications came along.

Very possibly true. G/F is coming over later on, and we're gonna talk for awhile. I'm not sure what I'm going to say.

[Hawg73]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
Very possibly true. G/F is coming over later on, and we're gonna talk for awhile. I'm not sure what I'm going to say.

I'm no shrink, but it sounds to me like you certainly aren't just thinking with your codpiece or you would have made a move a long time ago.

The more I read the more difficult (and intriguing) your position seems to be. I keep getting a "thank God that isn't me" feeling as I read, but there sounds like there is a possibility of things working out, although I still don't like the Vegas odds. Probably not as good as J-Lo and Marc making it through the year.

I just hope that whatever you end up saying .....may your words have wings.

Best of luck.

[Irish Eyes]

Hmm. This thread is interesting, "Tex."

[Irish Eyes]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Make sure your girlfriend doesn't know you go by OedipusTex on this board.

And that she can't just automatically sign on to the planet without your password.

Stranger things on heaven and earth, Horatio. Stranger things.

:D

Good thought.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by Irish Eyes
Hmm. This thread is interesting, "Tex."

Hmm indeed. Either bad news for Oed, or NR sneaking around with evil intentions.

At any rate, if it's the former - give the fella a break. He's trying to do the right thing.

[PatsButterfly]

Originally posted by Annihilus
Hmm indeed. Either bad news for Oed, or NR sneaking around with evil intentions.

At any rate, if it's the former - give the fella a break. He's trying to do the right thing.


I agree...You seem like a decent guy, OT. I admire your trying to figure it out rationally. I don't have any advice, but I do hope it all turns out good for ya.

[Undertaker #59]

Originally posted by Annihilus
Hmm indeed. Either bad news for Oed, or NR sneaking around with evil intentions.

At any rate, if it's the former - give the fella a break. He's trying to do the right thing.


Would be easy enough for one of the mods to check IP and run a traceroute.

[Oedipus Tex]

No, I'm just kidding, it's still me. ;)

That would really suck, though.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
No, I'm just kidding, it's still me. ;)

That would really suck, though.

And here I thought we were going to get deep into another edition of 'As the Planet Turns...'

:D

[Oedipus Tex]

I'll keep you guys posted. We're having dinner at my apartment tonight, and I'll probably bring it up in some form or another.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Yeah? Speak for yourself. I'm strictly a policy-maker.

Dammit maggie - we done gotta get you trained up right proper.

Isn't paranoia a 'must have' trait for a mod? If so, you gotta know how to check IP's & run trace routes.

And hack into my machine.

:D

[Undertaker #59]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Yeah? Speak for yourself. I'm strictly a policy-maker.

And a damn good one. But don't blow the mysticism. You are god here. :cool:

[Undertaker #59]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Damn. Did I blow it with the post above?

Maybe a little too much information, eh?

:shrug:

Nah, we can get the public relations department to do some damage control. Just don't let anything else slip. You are the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. ;) :bow: :whip:

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
...While I distract you and other posters...

Boy that's the truth - those damn shin guards are hot!

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Hawg and Pookie are in invisible mode as we speak, hacking into Oed's machine with the malevolent intention of getting his personal information and contacting his girlfriend and her sister. I thought we were planning a fairly straightforward "Blackmail, Hush money" deal against Oed that we would use to fund board expansion and invest in a Krispy Kreme franchise, but as I take it, Hawg and Pookie are much more interested in meeting the two ladies in question.

Leave it to those guys to screw things up, though it really sounds more like UT59's domain if there are women involved...I'm sure he's got his mits in on this operation somehow...

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Ah, well. Best laid plans of mice and men, I guess.

And I do mean, laid .

:D

...yeah...or wishful thinking, as the case may be...

[Undertaker #59]

Originally posted by Annihilus
Leave it to those guys to screw things up, though it really sounds more like UT59's domain if there are women involved...I'm sure he's got his mits in on this operation somehow...


Shh...you are going to blow my cover.

[bideau]

Originally posted by Undertaker #59
Shh...you are going to blow my cover.

Don't worry about your cover, it's already gone. You're not the most difficult person to spot. There aren't too many of us with 9 eyes and a floating ball for a body. Besides, you're not invisible.

[WY-Oregasm]

A difficult spot for all involved. Want to clarify that I don't believe anyone INTENDED for this to happen, it usually doesn't happen that way.

My very best wishes go to all of you in a most difficult situation. You are an honorable guy and will no doubt figure out the best course of action. Maybe with a little time, things will work out so that you can openly explore a relationship with g/f sister

Will keep my fingers crossed that everything works out great tonight. Good luck!

[DolFan]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
I'll keep you guys posted. We're having dinner at my apartment tonight, and I'll probably bring it UP in some form or another.

That's what I'm talking about.

:hump: :Ohbaby: :Ohbaby: :dom: :grovel: :spank:

Oed, You are my hero if you make this work. :bow:

[Peg]

Man, I REALLY wish that I had had a chance to reply to this thread before now... At this writing, poor ol' Oed is probably talking to his girlfriend... I have been involved in a similar scenario to this and would have liked to have shed some light on the subject... Suffice it to say, that many people here have shared some valuable insight with Oed and I hope that all goes well for him tonight... Here's hoping! *fingers crossed*

[dchester]

Originally posted by Peg
Man, I REALLY wish that I had had a chance to reply to this thread before now... At this writing, poor ol' Oed is probably talking to his girlfriend... I have been involved in a similar scenario to this and would have liked to have shed some light on the subject... Suffice it to say, that many people here have shared some valuable insight with Oed and I hope that all goes well for him tonight... Here's hoping! *fingers crossed* Even thought it maybe too late for OT's date tonight, you should feel free to tell the rest of us about your experience.
:) :grovel:
________
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[Peg]

Originally posted by dchester
Even thought it maybe too late for OT's date tonight, you should feel free to tell the rest of us about your experience.
:) :grovel:

Hmmm... You are just a bunch of VOYEURS, afterall, aren't ya?!... But, if you REALLY want me to share my experience, then you could try BEGGING me... I REALLY love it when men beg me... ;):p

[dchester]

Puhleeeeeze???

:grovel: :grovel: :grovel: :grovel: :grovel:
________
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[bideau]

Originally posted by Peg
Hmmm... You are just a bunch of VOYEURS, afterall, aren't ya?!... But, if you REALLY want me to share my experience, then you could try BEGGING me... I REALLY love it when men beg me... ;):p

If this is Penthouse Forum material, then ya, what dchester said ;)

[Undertaker #59]

Originally posted by Peg
Hmmm... You are just a bunch of VOYEURS, afterall, aren't ya?!... But, if you REALLY want me to share my experience, then you could try BEGGING me... I REALLY love it when men beg me... ;):p

Oh Beautiful Mistress Peg, please share your wisdom on your experience with us lowly worms. :grovel: :whip: :spank: :bow:


;)

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by Peg
Hmmm... You are just a bunch of VOYEURS, afterall, aren't ya?!... But, if you REALLY want me to share my experience, then you could try BEGGING me... I REALLY love it when men beg me... ;):p
I'd like to hear it. In fact, I'm not telling what happened last night, and today, until I see it. :D

[Undertaker #59]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
I'd like to hear it. In fact, I'm not telling what happened last night, and today, until I see it. :D


OH

thats not fair...Peg usually isn't on until evening.


We GOTTA know Oed.

[bideau]

Originally posted by Undertaker #59
OH

thats not fair...Peg usually isn't on until evening.


We GOTTA know Oed.

And sometimes she goes days without posting (probably too busy re-enacting one of her stories).

[WY-Oregasm]

the visuals of possibilities are dancing in my head:hump:

[Oedipus Tex]

Okay, without waiting for Peg...

GF showed up the last night with some food (which was nice.) Over dinner we talked about life, our relationship, and our family.

That is all. ;)

In all seriousness, after the preliminaries, she asked me if something has been bugging me. I told her that yeah, something was. She asked if it was something bad. I said that it was a total mess. All that follows is obviously paraphrased, and subject to my memory's generally suckiness. But it's pretty accurate, and at least conveys what I want it to convey.

She asked if it had been going on for awhile, and I said it had. She was definately upset that she hadn't been in the loop. I said - "there's no way I could have handled this like an adult and kept you in the loop, GF." She turned white. I've seen this phrase used before, and always thought it was a literary device. I've seen people turn red before, but she turned white.

I told her that I'd been having feelings for someone else.

"Someone I know?"

"Yeah."

"Who?"

"Sister."

Silence.

More silence. She sat down. Stood up, paced around the room. I watched, and gave her a couple minutes.

"Nothing's gone on, you know."

Explosion: "I SHOULD HOPE TO CHRIST NOT!" More Silence. More pacing. Finger drumming. I watched.

She puts her elbows on the counter, and her head in her hands. Mumbles something. "What was that?"

"I said, does she know."

"I don't think she has a clue how I feel."

"I bet."

"I haven't talked about it with her. She brought it up to me the other day."

"WHAT?!?!?"

"Look, I ended the conversation. It wasn't appropriate at all, and I told her the conversation was over and I left."

(Talking over my above words now) "She brought it up to you how?"

"You know how she gets, joking around with me. But it was different, and I called her on it. She told me she was being serious, essentially."

"Are you f*cking kidding me?!?" (She NEVER curses...)

"No." (What do you say here, BTW...anyone?)

"So she plants the idea in your head, and you follow her like the f*cking pied piper?"

(Talking over the end of her sentence) "No, it wasn't like that!"

"Oh, it wasn't? What was it like, then?"

"I've been feeling this way, more and more, for a couple months."

"WHAT?!?!"

"I'm sorry. Look, what do you want me to do..."

"MONTHS!?!?"

"...break up with you everytime a girl catches my eye?"

"What's 'a couple months?'"

"At least half a year. And its been growing."

Silence. Head down in hands again. For the first time, tears. Holy sh!t, a lot of tears. I *do* love this girl.

But not like that. And I hate myself for it. What a bastard I am.

I go to console her, and she shakes me off. Of course she does - I'm an a$$hole for trying.

The only sound is her sobbing. I'm not joking when I tell you that my counter and floor looked like I'd spilled a glass of seltzer. Eventually, she slumps down to the floor, sort of half-fetal, face in her arms. I sit. The crying stops.

She mumbles something. "What?"

"I SAID SHE'S PERFECT FOR YOU!"

Heart stops. Sh!t, I think everything stopped.

My turn for silence.

Eventually, more tears from her. More controlled. They stop again.

From nowhere:

"F*CK!"

I'm still silent. What do I say here? Jesus, ever?

"She gets EVERYTHING SHE WANTS!"

Nothing from me.

"Do you love her?"

"I really do."

"Do you love me?"

"I really do."

"F*CK YOU!" She was white before. She's fire engine red now. Sobbing.

"You're pissed off because you know I'm telling the truth." Not a question, really.

"Among other things...like maybe I'm a little pissed off that the man I was going to MARRY" she says this like the thought hadn't occured to me, "is in love with my sister!"

"I know. And I love you. But I'm in love with her."

"STOP IT!"

"What do you want me to do, here? You're two of my closest friends. I love both of you. I can't bear the thought of losing either of you. I want you to still be my closest friend. What did you expect me to do?"

"Shut up, you don't get to be pissed off!"

"Maybe so, but I can still be messed up in the head." I'm crying now, BTW. If you want to make fun of that, stick it. "I know this is a lot to drop on you, but I've been carrying this, trying to figure out what to do, for months now! I don't want to lose you, her, hell, your FAMILY! What are they going to think of me?"

Through her tears, she chuckles for a second.

"Yeah, real funny. I bet old Seanny (Da) will think this is a f*cking hoot."

She laughs for a second. Then "Shut up, Tex!"

More silence. Then..."Oh, shiiiiiiiiiiiiit!" Moaned more than screamed. She (still on the floor) just sort of collapses into a heap. She doesn't really change positions, just kind of...melts, I guess. This is sort of acceptance, I guess.

Something else mumbled. "I didn't get that."

"I think I knew."

Silence. "I can see that."

"She's perfect for you."

"I know." Pause. "You were, too."

"Yeah."

"Sh!t."

"Sh!t."

We talked for awhile, several hours. She slapped me once, more frustration than real anger. There was some "how could she?" some "how could you?" and a really decent amount of sympathy for me holding this and trying to deal with it. We talked about how we would have been happy married, but for...she knew. I didn't tell her I'd actually looked at rings, though I was tempted. I wanted to let her know how serious I was, but that's selfish. Why do that to her?

She kissed me. Really poured her soul into it, but it was clearly a goodbye kiss. I felt like I was cheating on Sister. For all I know, I might have been. "Tex..."

"Yeah."

"...forget it."

"No, what?"

"I do love you. I think you'll be really happy with her."

"Not if the thought of us makes you miserable."

"Right."

"You know its true."

She looks down. "I've got another tough sit down ahead of me."

"Yeah. Do you mind if I give her a heads up?"

"Part of me wants to see if she'd tell me."

"I bet, but that's not really fair."

"She knows you well enough to know that you'd tell me."

"Riiight. GF, *I* didn't know if I was going to tell you."

She stiffened at that.

"C'mon, put yourself in my place..."

She relaxed. "I know."

We're near the door. She starts that way, stops. Looks at me. "Can I stay?"

"You know you can."

I held her for awhile. We cried. After several hours I left her my bed, and took the couch. I'm not sure either of us slept much. I made french toast in the morning, and things were almost okay. She left.

That's it.

[Oedipus Tex]

And I guess any of you are free to make fun. That's the chance I take.

[Undertaker #59]

I'm not going to make fun Oed....that was an extremely difficult situation for you to go through. My heart goes out to you. You handled it all like a man. I applaud you. I'll make some more comments later. Thank you very much for sharing. I'm am blown away by this story.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Wow.

Good for you Oed. I'm sure you feel much better having all that out of the way. I hope the rest turns out alright. Good luck to you three - hopefully you can all end up good friends after all is said and done. I'm sure you can with a little work and a little time.

btw - I don't see anything there to make fun of.

[WY-Oregasm]

seriously. You were honest, kind, and supportive. Nothing you could have done better than the honorable thing.

Now you have to wait and see what happens, and holy cats, how tough that must be. Obviously the comment that "she always gets everything" is the tip of the iceberg I was trying to talk about last night.

There is old SH*T between them that has NOTHING to do with you. The "gift" in all of this is that no matter what happens, HOPEFULLY the two sisters will use it to lay ALL of their cra_p out on the table and deal with whatever needs dealing.

The end result is as you say, risky for you. But high risk, high reward. It could prove to be what makes or breaks your relationship with both of these women. You did the only thing you could do that was the RIGHT thing to do.

I hope the bottom line is that these two sisters decide how to let this be what HELPS them get over their past "stuff", or it will just be more fuel to a bigger flaming somewhere down the road. That's the thing that's so convoluted about sibling relationships. You can be so close, and so HURTFUL to one another.

Just my point of view, but I still feel the most compassion for your g/f in this situation. Sounds like she's been there before with SisterDearest, at least metaphorically.

Part of me hopes that g/f fights for her relationship with you. Just my one cent opinion, but I'm still thinking that SexySister ALLOWED herself to get into a situation that is causing an unbelievable amount of pain for her sibling, and for you. Again. Just a tad bit selfish of her if you ask me.

And this is a repeated pattern ("she always gets everything"). Enough to make this old therapist go hmmmmm...

Hats off to you for being a man of integrity.

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by wyobilzfan
seriously. You were honest, kind, and supportive. Nothing you could have done better than the honorable thing.

Now you have to wait and see what happens, and holy cats, how tough that must be. Obviously the comment that "she always gets everything" is the tip of the iceberg I was trying to talk about last night.

There is old SH*T between them that has NOTHING to do with you. The "gift" in all of this is that no matter what happens, HOPEFULLY the two sisters will use it to lay ALL of their cra_p out on the table and deal with whatever needs dealing.

The end result is as you say, risky for you. But high risk, high reward. It could prove to be what makes or breaks your relationship with both of these women. You did the only thing you could do that was the RIGHT thing to do.

I hope the bottom line is that these two sisters decide how to let this be what HELPS them get over their past "stuff", or it will just be more fuel to a bigger flaming somewhere down the road. That's the thing that's so convoluted about sibling relationshiips. You can be so close, and so HURTFUL to one another.

Just my point of view, but I still feel the most compassion for your g/f in this situation. Sounds like she's been there before with SisterDearest, at least metaphorically. Part of me hopes that g/f fights for her relationship with you. Just my one cent opinion, but I'm still thinking that SexySister ALLOWED herself to get into a situation that is causing an unbelievable amount of pain for her sibling, and for you. Again. Just a tad bit selfish of her if you ask me.

And this is a repeated pattern. Enough to make this old therapist go hmmmmm...

Hats off to you for being a man of integrity.
Thanks for the nice comments...all of you.

As for the "tip of the iceberg" thing, that's true. They're as close as can be, but Sister has a way of always coming up roses in any situation. You know anyone like that? I can see how being a sibling to a person like that would be frustrating.

But as far as I know (and I know a lot) the boyfriend stealing is brand new.

Can turn this around on you, WYO? You seem to have something against Sister from the getgo. It seems that you had something in your mind from your first read through, and read everything through that lens now.

I agree that I'm far from objective, but from where I sit, she was desperate, and trying to ensure that she didn't miss her chance at me (that sounds arrogant. It isn't meant to be, but you get the point) and have regrets for her whole life. There's no regret like the chance you don't take, and all that jazz, right? That's what I'm seeing here - both for me and for her.

Yeah, it's pretty high-risk. I haven't been able to settle down.

BTW - during the conversation, I had mentioned that I'd come here for advice, BECAUSE it could be anonymous. I just got an email from G/F that just says "Bang 'em both! Threesome!" and a laughy emoticon. Then a sad emoticon. And that's it.

She must be a friggin wreck. Sister's working today, so they're not going to be able to talk for awhile.

[dchester]

Bravo OT,

I'm very glad that you told the GF everything. She needed to know what was going on. As I expected, you handled yourself so well, that all options are likely still available (even the threesome!!!). The sisters will need to workout their issues.

You've been honorable to all concerned. I'm very impressed.
:toast:
________
mac game (http://macgame.org)

[WY-Oregasm]

Thanks for your thoughtful response and follow up information. It sounds like your g/f is probably a wreck, but at least she is a functional wreck.

As far as (paraphrasing) having it in for SisterSexy from the get-go... I'd have to say perhaps so. But I'm open to seeing how she handles herself with g/f before writing her off as acting without serious regard for her sister.

Perhaps this will help explain my position. I have found myself in numerous situations like SisterSexy over the years with other women, friends, family members over similar circumstances.

When I was single, my single friends wouldn't invite me out with them. My married friends wouldn't invite me out with them. Not meaning to appear arrogant or vain, but men found/find me attractive (yes, even at my advanced age of pushing 50) and it caused(s) LOTS of problems for me with other women.

OK. Bottom line is that when one is faced with living like that, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about conducting yourself, at least if you'd like to have a relatively happy relationship with other women. The RIGHT way is steer clear of other people's boyfriends, husbands, etc. PERIOD. END OF STATEMENT.

Did I read correctly in this voluminous thread that you don't believe that there is necessarily only ONE right person for somebody? If you did indeed 'say' that, then the RIGHT thing for SisterSexy to do would be to set aside her attraction and be CAREFUL not to "lead you on", or give you "signals" that she obviously gave you.

This should have NEVER have gotten to first base. SHE is responsible for letting it get that far IMO. In situations similar to this one, if I were in SexySister's place I would go to the g/f FIRST and tell her what was going on inside of ME, NOT to you to confirm whether or not "I'm" reading the signals correctly. I don't buy that. Any adult woman who is that attractive knows the signals by now, Oed.

The thing that kind of pulls at my heart strings here is that I worry that g/f may not (at least at the moment) have the self confidence/emotional energy to put up a fight for you. That "sad" emoticon she put after the "threesome" comment says enough. And I'm curious about the comments she made last night about SisterSexy being PERFECT for you. Sounds like g/f has felt like the 'ugly' sister before.

If this were a novel I was reading, I'd be pulling for g/f to fight for you and win your heart in the end. Then she could finally feel on an even keel with SisterSexy, who will have plenty of opportunities down the road.

LOL, in reality whatever happens... you have provided a chance for something really good to happen. I just hope they make the best of it, and as previously mentioned, that someday all three of you can laugh about it.


Oh, and by the way, I have a half-sister who is 14 years younger than I am...... and have been in SexySister's moccasins a couple of times over the years. So what I share with you is from personal as well as professional experience.

Hope that helps clarify my point of view a little.

[bideau]

Just amazing, Oed. I can't imagine anything much more painful. I've got to be honest...if I was in a situation like that, I'd want to be the one getting the news, not the one giving. GF is dealing with hurt, you're dealing with hurt AND guilt.

I hope things go well when the sisters talk. Now, you get to find out how the sister truly feels about you.

Good luck the rest of the way.

[Hawg73]

Amazing.

I have to say that you have some big balls on you, OT and reading the dialogue was gut wrenching. Extremely well written. We were all there.

I can imagine that you've probably been hitting the Mylanta. Hard.

Sometimes you have to take a few steps backward....you know the cliche'. While it remains to be seen how it will all turn out what seems clear is that while g/f is feeling crushed, she knew it already in the back of her mind, tucked down deep but there nonetheless. She knew, but was kidding herself.

It may not feel like it now, but you did yourself and her an enormous favor by bringing this up now, rather than after a wedding that would never feel....right and a marriage that would feel the same.

Good luck to all three of you.

[WY-Oregasm]

You put it out there much straighter than I did that's for sure....

Looking at your 'take' on Tex's behavior here, I agree with some of the points you are making. But I am still stuck on SexySister who thinks it's just OK to see if she can turn on her sister's boyfriend.

I didn't want to be a hardarse about this, but if this situation were sitting in my office the first thing I would be thinking is that there is some family dynamics that need to be explored ASAP. I could go in to further detail but won't here. Suffice it to say that there are usually some very specific risk factors associated with this type of behavior.

And as far as a "threesome" with two sisters? I think some guys choose to deal with their discomfort by using humor (referring to the responses on this thread). The responses here are pretty typical.

Now Tex, FAlice does hit the bullseye for nailing you with the stupidity factor for referring someone here, if you told them the site to look at. I said this before and I'll say it again, g/f is the person who I have the most compassion for in this situation.

Ultimate justice would be for you and SexySister to end up perfectly miserable together in a sloppy house that drives you craZy (while she cheats on you), and g/f finds a HOT man deserving of her love and lives happily ever after.

[dchester]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Well, I for one am not laughing.

I think it's fair to say that you have dropped a rather large bomb on top of yourself and these two women. I'm afraid, Oed, that you'll find my reading on this quite a bit different than the others. FA,

I would like to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the situation. OT was honorable in my opinion. He did not take the easy route, and cheat on his girlfriend, nor did he drop a bomb on anyone. The sister is the one who hit on OT, not the other way around. The girlfriend does need to know what is going on (in my opinion), so she will have a chance to understand what OT has been going through, and why he is acting the way he has been. If anyone committed a betrayal, it was the sister (and by the way, I'm not saying she is neccessarily evil either).

Now one can second guess whether OT should have directed the GF to this site or not, but my guess is that she will be intelligent enough to figure out that no one is laughing at any of them (even if we interlace our posts with jokes).

The status quo was not sustainable. Now with everything out in the open, there is a chance that OT may find hapiness with one of them. If it had not all come out, he would have eventually broken up with the girlfriend. She would have wondered for a long time why he left (with no answers). OT would have been wondering for years if there was a chance.

In my opinion, he acted honorably. I doubt many women can understand the effect that lust can have on a guy. A lesser man would have succumbed to the temptation and had an affair on the side. He did the right thing, and I suspect the girlfriend will see that in the end.
________
Suzuki RE5 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Suzuki_RE5)

[BionicPatriot]

I gotta give some to Tex...Alice what was he gonna do, stay with a girl who he was obviously not feeling as much as the other? In the end that leaves the pain inside him buried away for years...Then what? Then what does he do when they are married and it is just to much and he either needs to get with the other sister or if he just gives in and cheats? He did it the best way he could....And you must understand that. How can he be a puppet of fakeness and walk around with a smile on his face while inside he does not want it?

I do think Tex is an idiot for doing this to completely destroy what he had. And believe me..It is ****ed. The sisters will obviously be pissed. and dont give me **** saying they wont, because lord knows they will be. Now his relationship will go through family arguments...Guilt...the whole nine yards. But why the hell are you showing this thread to them? Do you tell her everything Tex? There has got to be some things kept to yourself man!

But when I sit here and say...Man how could he dump her like that? So what if you had a guy you loved and then some hottie dude comes up in your life...Has the looks and is a great person? Will you get feelings? Obviously! And then what are you gonna do when it begins to take over your feelings for the other person? Alice have you ever been in the mans shoes? Have you honestly? Have you ever loved someone...But over time something "fresh" just came up? As how may I put this..."Immature" as I sound, its the truth.

Time change...And over time, things that have been around for awhile seem to get old...And then when you think of the other person you get excited...Because you dont know the road ahead, you dont know what could happen. and curiousity clouds your mind like a mother ****er. It is pretty obvious Alice you seem to be viewing it as "OK, here is the ******* boyfriend just throwing everything all away for some girl" And the truth is, that IS EXACTLY what happened.

But honestly...How much the past matter? You need an example? It was three months ago when everyone still was pals with NR, now he is enemy of the state. Times change, AND FEELINGS CHANGE. Yes I know...you could say its like dropping the past. But what can the past do? Just sit there...And the present is the effect now. Maybe a miracle will work out and you and your girl could get through this..but if you look at it, no way hose!

I know the feeling...Though I was never engaged or never with a woman for years, feelings just change and sometimes curiousity gets the best of us. He had the ****ing balls to push her off of him when he could have done ANYTHING! He put what is right over his own greed...How many ****ing people can take that claim? So Alice, before you cut down someone...Look at the ****ing situation.

[WY-Oregasm]

Tex did do the right thing by pushing sister away when he was confronted with the situation and basically cornered. And yes, that must have taken a great deal of restraint to resist.

But sister had NO business egging this on, and has done serious damage to her sisterly relationship. SHE acted upon feelings and selfishly indulged in at her sister's expense. NOT nice.

Bionic's comment:

Have you ever loved someone...But over time something "fresh" just came up?


OMG. Um yea, Bionic. All of us meet "fresh" from time to time. But "fresh" and "lasting" are most often mutually exclusive experiences.

So what is the point you are trying to make to Tex? That SisterFresh is just another passing fancy? That a person should be excused for their selfish behavior because it's understandable when something "fresh" shows up?

LOL.... I think when I go crawl into bed I'm going to tell my husband I really love him but I'm looking for something "fresh" to come up;) Maybe he'll go all "George Clooney" on me so I can do a lap dance and give him something "fresh". :thumb:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... thanks for the great idea!!!

[BionicPatriot]

Originally posted by wyobilzfan
Tex did do the right thing by pushing sister away when he was confronted with the situation and basically cornered. And yes, that must have taken a great deal of restraint to resist.

But sister had NO business egging this on, and has done serious damage to her sisterly relationship. SHE acted upon feelings and selfishly indulged in at her sister's expense. NOT nice.

Bionic's comment:

Have you ever loved someone...But over time something "fresh" just came up?


OMG. Um yea, Bionic. All of us meet "fresh" from time to time. But "fresh" and "lasting" are most often mutually exclusive experiences.

So what is the point you are trying to make to Tex? That SisterFresh is just another passing fancy? That a person should be excused for their selfish behavior because it's understandable when something "fresh" shows up?

LOL.... I think when I go crawl into bed I'm going to tell my husband I really love him but I'm looking for something "fresh" to come up;) Maybe he'll go all "George Clooney" on me so I can do a lap dance and give him something "fresh". :thumb:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... thanks for the great idea!!!

Wow....You didn't get my point. I am glad you and your husband stayed together...Great. But sometimes....As seen in movies and as in real life, there is always something out there that is "fresh" enough to break it. Sometimes people need new things...and it IS cold, it DOES hurt....Is it exactly right? That is another topic to discuss....But like I said. Sometimes, you are so locked on someone that noone in this world could ever pull you guys apart. As so the case with your husband.

But how do you know this was the case here? Do you know him in person? I know he said he loved her, but he does the other girl to. So maybe he does think something is worth giving up for a chance. Now is it smart? It does not take a genius to do the math (lets see.....risk losing a woman that would have been with you for quite a while maybe forever sfor something that could maybe last a few months? not even?) I know guilt will be there, but sometimes **** happens.

Maybe you can stop eating the girl's sympathy so much and you can see the true reason why he did what he did. Sometimes...We do dumb ****, and risk it all. Is it worth it? Time can only tell...

[BionicPatriot]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Yeah?

Think about it again. And then think about it some more.

What you imagine to be "Honorable" is merely pure stupidity. I never said that Oedipus should stay with his girlfriend. I never said that he shouldn't pursue the sister. At the same time I never suggested that he should just sleep with the sister (as an affair) and say nothing. I told him that he should figure out his relationship first. Then decide what to do about the sister later. He gets no points from me for "Style." He's an idiot with a big mouth. That's all. Honor has nothing to do with it. Pretending otherwise isn't going to help him in the future.

You know what you remind me of? You remind me of Catholic teenagers who won't use birth control when having premarital sex. For some reason, they think stupidity makes them more honorable. Guess what? Instead, they just get pregnant and it ruins their lives. Well, well. Oedipus was an honorable man, eh? So was Brutus.

I was quite clear in my advice to Oedipus. Go back to the record and check. In the end, I have simply argued that he has played the part of a fool. And I expect that fate will not be kind to him where this story is concerned.

But...we shall see. Perhaps it will all turn out well in the end. Tell me, though...were you in his place, would you have wanted this thread read by your ex-girfriend?? How would you like it if your hoped-for future in-laws read it? Oh, and would you like your future girlfriend to be reading this? Knowing that her character has been discussed and dissected by people around the country? And knowing that her own betrayal of her sister has been chronicled for all to see???? And that her betrayed sister read it???? Because all of these things are not only possible. They are probable.

But far be it for me to take the thread down. After all, it shows Oedipus to be...I'm sorry....what was it you called him? Oh, yes...an honorable man. A stupid honorable man. But an honorable man, nonetheless.

As far as what his girlfriend may or may not be feeling right now - it has to do with FEELINGS not INTELLIGENCE. We're not talking about a "rational" situation here -- as you well know. I encourage you to go back and read through all the posts as if your girlfriend was chatting with other women online. Try to get a sense for how you would feel if your girlfriend were after your brother and was trying to figure out whether or not to dump you. And then, ask yourself how you would feel if she told you that nothing had happened between her and your brother, but then revealed in the thread that the brother had indeed come on to her? How would you feel about your brother?

And how do you expect your brother would be feeling about your girlfriend who had stupidly destroyed a confidence between them? Do you suppose your brother would trust this woman with any secret of significance? Do you suppose the brother would decide...ah, yes...this is a person I can trust...trust with my intimate secrets and my life. Regardless of the fact that she just screwed my brother over and betrayed me to my brother as well as to a board of anonymous football fans.

As far as the crap about Oedipus's honor relative to the sister's honor? Spare me. They deserve each other. They're made from the same mold. Perhaps they will be happy and all's well that ends well. I, for one, doubt it.

He couldn't have handled it more poorly. And I expect that time will bear this out.

Really...think about this some more. But why the hell are you showing this thread to them? Do you tell her everything Tex? There has got to be some things kept to yourself man!

Read what I said. I agree 100% and add another 100% to that, that he is an idiot for showing this thread to the girl...And did I say anything about honor? Alice, have you ever actually had a man come on to you that much when you had someone? Honestly...To the point where they were willing to do some ****? I know it was a low blow and of all people to her sister that she did that to..

I mean she did emss it up, but he had balls doing what he did. He had the balls to RESIST cheating. and had the balls to SPEAK THE TRUTH. Those two things my friend, are very hard for the human existance to do these days. And how are they made from the same mold? I think the sister is (sorry Tex) A piece of ****. You just dont do that...No doubt to a fiance to your sister.

but sometimes things are meant to be....And sometimes we risk it all for everything. I guess to a woman and a man things will be seen differently. What a man will look at and say is impressive to resist, or brave to actually do (meaning speak the truth) may be seen as greed, or stupidity at finest to women...Not to be sexest...But I guess to each their own views really.

[bideau]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Let us call a spade a spade at this point. There is lust here. There is no clear indication that this is truly love. Love is patient. Love endures. True Love -- for this woman and for himself -- would have suggested to Oedipus the following course of action.

1. Wait. Figure out what is wrong with the relationship with the sister and end it gracefully and with decency.

2. Wait some more. Hope that the sister will wait for him. Know that if she is truly in love with him (rather than playing a game) that she will be there for him when he's ready.

3. When it's time and wounds have healed, slowly reintroduce himself into this family's life. As an honorable man. Not a turd.

4. Date the sister. Get to know her. Have all the fabulous sex possible. Mazeltov!

In the interest of patting myself on the back here, this was what I posted a couple of days ago:

OK, now you've just thrown another twist to the scenario. Now you're saying that you love your current g/f like a sister-in-law. That's not fair to her. You need to resolve this issue first, as if the little sis was not in the picture.

If you end the relationship, you need to let things cool down for a little bit. Let little sis know that there's a possibility, but you need time to sort things out. If you don't immediately jump into things, the family may see it as a natural progression from friends to lovers.

I agree that's its important for Oed to walk away for a little while. He may be faced with the possibility of the sisters working things out and turning on him as the bad guy. Such is the nature of high risk, high reward.

I have to agree with some others here that I felt very uncomfortable when Oed brought up this message board. I can say that if it was my wife, she would have cut off my manhood if she found out I had aired this publicly. The mistake was not that he sought advice, the mistake was that he told her.

I still think Oed did the right thing by talking this out with the GF. This was something that had been gnawing at him for a long time. Sooner or later, this was going to come out. Better for it to come out sooner. But you are correct, Alice and Wyo, this may very well end up being something he regrets. But if so, I would categorize this as "it was never meant to be".

[DolFan]

Does this mean that there won't be a threesome? :harumph:

[bideau]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Again, just so you know that we're on the same page here, Bideau, I completely agree that he had to talk it out with the sister. And I completely agree that it would be foolish to stay in a relationship with a woman he doesn't love.

My point is that he needed to be careful about what he said in that discussion. Because honestly what he said makes him come off as a two-timing manipulator -- not an honorable man. What was he thinking revealing the sister's actions? If that girl is so dumb as to trust him any further then she's a bigger fool than he is.

And most certainly, the fact that he directed the girlfriend here tells me all I need to know about Oedipus's stability.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree a little bit here. Maybe it's because we're seeing this from differing genders.

I don't think there's a man on this board, married or otherwise, who has not had his attention diverted in some form. Whether it be by simple lust or finding ourselves making a serious emotional connection with a workmate or friend. How we handle does not necessarily speak to our own personal weaknesses. It speaks to our relationship with our spouse or SO. I know it sounds cliche, but its the nature of the male beast to have one eye on his mate and another eye on what passes by. I truly believe that if the relationship is strong, it'll survive anything. That's certainly true in my case. Have I been tempted? Absolutely. But I've got 24 years, 2 kids and a planned future invested in my relationship. I can't imagine anything that's worth sacrificing that. Oed did not have this type of investment.

To question Oed's stability is not fair. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and blaming his weak relationship, not weak character. But maybe that's the "guy" reaction because we can all see ourselves in his place.

I've got to say, I sense between you and Wyo a little bit of a "sisterhood" response to this. That may not be fair, but as you said, call a spade a spade. This may be more a battle of sexes than anything else.

[Oedipus Tex]

Interesting thing, here.

I talked with both G/F and sister last night, seperately and together. Putting everything else aside, neither of them had a problem with me posting here, both understood why I did, and both had read it. Both understood that the threesome stuff was a joke. Both laughed at the misunderstandings and mischaracterizations that stemmed from this, particularly Sister as some kind of "Jezebel," which couldn't be more rediculous. I don't know how many times I have to say that she didn't try to seduce me, that everything was verbal, that she dresses very modestly, etc. In fact, what I said about her leaning in close and asking if she was wrong to think that I felt the same way is about the closest to "seductive" I've ever seen her.

BUT...

This MORNING I got a phonecall from G/F. She had looked at the board again, and seen Alice's and WYO's comments, and she was seriously pissed off. Both at them for their comments, and NOW she was starting to get mad at me for posting it. Why? Not because it was aired publicly. Hell, there are more than 10 million people in Texas - it's hiding in plain sight. She was pissed off at the mischaracterizations, the character assassinations, on both her and her sister, and now on me.

She's not some no-self-respect chick who's pissed off because her sister's hot. She's hot - beautiful more than hot, almost, but still hot. She's a successful, smart, beautiful woman. She's dated dozens of guys before me, probably 4 or 5 seriously. I don't think she's going to "fight for me," not because she doesn't want to, but because she KNOWS. She's known for awhile.

As for Sister, I've already gone into the Jezebel comparison and how stupid that is. Let me add this to the pile: she's a virgin. Hell, they both are. 27 and 24, beautiful, smart, virgins. And they went to college for more than their "Mrs." Degree. Both of them know that they are good looking, and both of them make a point of dressing modestly precisely so they don't attract the kind of guys that are into sleeze.

And remember, this isn't about "fresh." This is a young woman who I've known for some time, and who is one of my closest friends. Not some chippy who waltzed into my office some day in a tankini and asked if I would be so kind as to rub some lotion on her back.

She's not going to tell her father, of course...and frankly, I wouldn't mind if she did.
There's a reason, and a d@mn good one, that the guys on this thread have been pretty supportive of how I handled the situation: because either they, or most of the guys they know, wouldn't have had the balls to stand up for themselves and do what I did. The girl's father is an interesting combination of a "Man's man" and an oldstyle gentleman. If he were to read this, he'd end up calling me and we'd talk it out. We'd probably yell some, but he'd understand, and know that what I did was honest, and took guts. And I KNOW this about him.

No, I don't tell G/F everything, but I always make sure to let her know where I stand, and what I feel. THAT is one of the most painful things to her in this situation - that I held back something I was FEELING from her for so long. I've made a conscious effort to invest myself fully in any serious relationship I enter - while I'm generally a private person, in a romantic relationship I open up as much as I possibly can. I WANTED her to read this thread, so she could know how I've been feeling, and what I've been thinking in a medium that was time stamped. To make up for some lost time, to fill her in.

As for not telling G/F why I was ending the relationship...frankly, you guys can go screw. That's total hoss-sh!t. Does that or does that not go directly against the constant complaint that guys do not explain their feelings or their actions? How many times do women complain that the guy ended a relationship, and didn't even give a reason? And you know what? This reason SURE AS HELL WOULD HAVE COME OUT AT SOME POINT. Remember this: I'm not trying to avoid hurt feelings. They happen, and there is simply no way to avoid hurt feelings in this situation - period. They're freaking SISTERS...even if I moved to Uzbekistan, it isn't like they wouldn't have wondered why, and talked about it. I promise you that Sister would have told G/F about it, and then any chance I might have possibly had to salvage a relationship (any relationship) with either of them would be sunk.

Alice - I hope it makes you feel great to be holier-than thou, and must-be-right on a message board, reading things in to a situation about people you don't know. Because NOW G/F is pissed off. She didn't care about me posting here...frankly she was interested to see the different responses, and we all shared a (somewhat uncomfortable) joke about a threesome. They can joke about that because of the type of people they are - it hasn't a prayer in the world of happening.
But she's pissed off now, at the mischaracterizations, and at me for allowing herself and her sister to be painted that way. As of early this morning. I take responsibility for that, because I didn't go into as much detail as I should have about what sort of people they were. But to launch into the kind of self-righteous rant that you did above is inexcusable.

You have to know that you DON'T know the people involved, and that people are different. You must know that the information you have is immeasurably incomplete, by the nature of the medium. And yet you are presumtuous enough to d@mn me, Sister, AND G/F for a situation that there is no way of you knowing the inner dynamics of, involving people you don't know. Did you happen to notice that everyone else in the thread was very cautious in giving their advice, tempering their remarks with things like "Its hard to know," etc.? ("Bang the sister" aside, of course).

REALPOLITIK, Alice? I hope my love life never comes to that. I'm not into fuzzing facts to soothe feelings, and I try to tell it like it is. I've made a point to try and live my life much more in conformity to idealism than to pragmatism. I have a hard time regretting that, even though it's cost me a lot. I'm fine with that. Hell, case in point. I'm not a virgin, and I don't believe that pre-marital sex is wrong. But my G/F did, so I didn't have sex for well over a year, because I wouldn't cheat (didn't want to), and I respected her beliefs too much to try and change them.

What is it coming to when a group of guys is applauding another guy for being honest and sharing his feelings, and the girls are pissed off because he did, that saying what he really felt was too cruel and insensitive? Hoss-sh!t.

[DolFan]

I would definitely make sure that the next girl I went out with was a triplet. That could be fun.

[bideau]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
If you think that women don't always have one eye on their mate and one on other attractive men, then you are mistaken.

This isn't about the sexes. I don't think there's anything wrong with Oedipus breaking it off with one sister and ultimately trying to start a relationship with the other.

What I find suggestive of imbalance is that he would direct his girlfriend here. That's all. I don't think he owes the woman to love her. I don't expect Oedipus to have any investment in the relationship. Just quit filling me full the "He's such an honorable guy thing."

OK, now you've got me totally confused.

The only problem you have is that Oed told his girlfriend about this thread. Is that correct? I happen to agree with you that it was a mistake. But why the enormous amount of rage?

Let his chips fall where they may. I happen to think that he did the honorable thing. I'm not in a position to judge his motives and I'm certainly in no position to pass moral judgements on two woman I know nothing about. I may speculate on the outcome as others have, but I will not pass judgement on any of their moral characters.

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Guess what.

They're lying to you.

And if they like what the men on this board have said about them and implied then they're very strange women indeed.

I can just hear them now, giggling...really...a three way...with my sister??? How...charming. How funny. Tee-hee.
You might need a reading class. I didn't say they liked it, I said they were laughing about it because it's rediculous and so far from the truth. The conversation about the obsession with sex in our society is an old one for us. We joke around and are very crass to poke fun at that.

Exactly what is it that you think they are lying to me about?

Believe me....this is just the start of it for you. Right now they may be finding some straw man to blame for their feelings. But their anger is with you. Not me. And not Wyo.

Just wait. You're the one who has created the mess for yourself. Not me. And not Wyo.
I'm not blaming either of you for the situation. I'm blaming you because you're insisting that you are right about people you couldn't be more wrong about. The situation...developed. I didn't create it, and I'm proud of how I handled it as it arose. No, they're not pissed at you, they're pissed - period. Women are at least as inherently competative as men, and to be derided by someone who doesn't know you is embarassing. They expect the crudeness from the men, and can understand that.

And understand this...they're in shock right now and want to believe the best about you. It's easier to blame some other woman that they don't know. But that will change soon enough.
And what is it, exactly, that I have done that is wrong? The only things you've pointed out are 1) that I directed them to this site; and 2) that I actually TOLD G/F why I was ending the relationship. I stand by my actions in both of those instances - I think I did the right thing...or at least the thing that was the least wrong in a very complicated situation.

I'm sure they'll both (together and seperately) go through phases of hating me. That's fine, I expect it. This isn't going to resolve itself overnight.

As far as your "Honesty" goes and your honor? Those left the door months ago. Betrayal does not require consummation. That's a convenient illusion for you all at the moment. But eventually both of them will come to understand that.
How so? As I've stated before, what would you have me do? Break up with my girlfriend the minute my eye wanders? Discuss it in detail every time? ("Boy, check out the rack on that chick! What a hottie she is over there. Love to tag that ass, huh?") Right.

Tell me, Alice, when did my honesty leave town? What have I done that makes me less than honorable? The fact that I DIDN'T cheat? The fact that I worked like hell to make this feel like it was only about "fresh?" The fact that I actually told the truth to all involved, and didn't try to make myself out to be a hero?

And they keeping the board. And you think that it's just all about their feelings about what I've said? Uh huh.

You dumb f*ck.

Go back and read this thread again. From the top.

I have no idea what the first sentense means. The rest of it I've already addressed.

But you're right of course. Always. Which is why your Iraq commentary was so very relevant in this thread. *insert little rolly eyes here* I'm glad you know me so much better than I do, or they do.

If I were you, Alice, I might at this point make a comment that it sounds like you are retaining some bitterness from a previous encounter that you were involved in, and projecting that on this situation. But I'm not nearly that friggin presumptuous.

Where this stands now is this: they're working it out, I'm working it out with them when they call on me to do so. They're pissed, hurt, confused, and in shock, definately. Aimed at me, aimed at each other, aimed at whatever is convenient. But we all know each other well enough to know that no one was out to hurt the others, and that the whole situation sucks. There's no easy way to do this.

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Wait a second...let's see now.

They're virgins at the ages of 27 and 24 all because of their upstanding moral character and yet they had absolutely no problem with comments about a potential three-way and advice such as "Bang em both!"

Right. Sure. The women I've known who remained virgins for that long would find nothing amusing about this sort of discussion.
Don't stereotype, Alice, it's not becoming. As I say above, the conversation about society's sex-obsession is an old one for us. We joke about stuff like that ALL THE TIME. Not everyone who remains a virgin is a prude, you know.

And the father...an upstanding old-fashioned sort of gentleman...is just going to be a little angry with you and holler a bit. I got an idea. Why don't you send the father over here to read the thread. That would be a great idea. Maybe you two can joke about it over a pint.
No, he's going to be pissed. I expect a phone call or a visit. But I also expect that he's going to understand in time. I offered to the sisters to be the one to bring it to Sean, if they wanted. Obviously now is not the right time to do it.

I expect it to be very uncomfortable for awhile. But I think he will understand in time that I am a much better fit for daughter #2 than for daughter #1. And, in time, I suspect that me dating daughter #1 will be viewed as a happy accident that brought me into daughter #2's life. That is assuming the absolute best case scenario, of course - that G/F finds another man and is happily married, and that the bitterness of all of this fades.

But given how this has played out thus far, I have reason to hope for that.

And these sisters, after knowing that the one came onto you behind the other's back, have absolutely no difficulty with each other?
Of course not. I never said that, and I don't think I ever implied that, Alice. Do you only read every other word?

Oh god. This is too funny. It's like talking to a blind man. A deluded blind man. Wake up kid. This story is going to get uglier and uglier. And it won't have anything to do

If you believe that, it's merely a convenient self-delusion on your part. And you'll just go through this again.

I'm not responsible for your stupidity. And don't blame any of what will come your way on anyone other than your own dumb self.
Oh, okay. I get it now.

[WY-Oregasm]

...... TEX says....

"What is it coming to when a group of guys is applauding another guy for being honest and sharing his feelings, and the girls are pissed off because he did, that saying what he really felt was too cruel and insensitive? Hoss-sh!t."


Um, yep. You are dead-on there, Oed. There is an understandable difference of opinion that would be expected here along gender lines.

I still stand by what I say. A person's virginity or lack thereof has NOTHING to do with the subconscious issues that go on between siblings. I don't think someone's sexual preference to remain celebate has anything to do with what was allowed to happen here.

You seem to feel the need to defend and characteriZe these women as good wholesome women. WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THAT MAKE? My opinion stands and will not change that it was self-indulgent for sister to let her OWN feelings get to first base.

It is, has been, and ever shall be inappropriate behavior on her part. I don't care if she is the niece of Mother Teresa, that has nothing to do with what happened!

That stated, she's the one that has to live with it. G/F has every right to be mad, but that anger at any comments I've made is likely a projection of her embarassment and disgust at the situation being played out on a message board. I am nothing more than a persona on a message board. The person she's really mad at is YOU.

She may not say so yet, but g/f has a LOT of stuff to try to process, so I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt here as far as her misplaced anger. Not to worry, the repercussions of this will be playing out for a LOOOOOONG time for all of you.

Unless of course, somehow y'all just figure out a nice way to sweep this all under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. But in the end, it will come back to bite again and again and again.

This is my last post on this thread. Having confirmation from you that g/f is reading this stuff, I want no further part in this discussion. At this point, I hope Alice or someone pulls this thread. Just my one cent, but I question the value of leaving this thread here when anonymity has been broken.

It's like driving by the scene of a horrific accident. I refuse to be a gawker and that's what this is beginning to feel like.

My sincerest positive thoughts and wishes to all who are involved in this difficult situation, and that it somehow turns out to be an opportunity for personal growth for everyone involved.


OUT.

[bideau]

Agreed, WYO.

These posts are getting way too personal. It's time to let the threesome (not intended in a salacious manner) sort this out in private and let us all get back to girlie and beefcake posts.

Good luck, Oed. I hope that in the end, it works out for the best for everyone.

[DolFan]

Just to be clear. I can receive private messages on this board. Please don't hesitate :dbanana:

[Oedipus Tex]

Anonymity has been broken? How? Where?

Look, I stand by what I did. I'm glad that I had this thread to document what I'd been working through in my head, to show both of them. I'm glad that they're able to see the opinions of other people, without letting what is now understandibly a secret, out.

I don't think they'd mind a bit to see the thread continue - much like watching a movie to which you can relate can be cathartic, I'd imagine that this helps them. They get to see my thoughts, and the thoughts of people who are in a position to be objective, even if they can't be privy to everything.

WYO -

I tried to re-characterize the sisters because there had been a lot of talk about seduction, about "SEXYSister," about "fresh," about "lust," etc. I didn't want you all to make your judgments about the situation based on "The Young and the Restless." That couldn't be further from the truth.

Was there a betrayal? Yes. But I know both of them. I sincerely believe that there is no way that Sister does what she does unless she truly believes that she was trying to preserve the possibility of a relationship she finds incredibly valuable. This isn't a case of the big sister with the pretty doll.

Have you read "Little Women?" Sister is Jo. G/F is Amy. It just happened in the other order. This is pursuit of the happy ending, the right ending. Not just for me, but for all of us.

I don't expect this will be over in a week, or a month, or even a year. There will be lasting bitterness from this. But however it turns out, I put my cards on the table. I said what I felt, I was honest in how I handled a situation where the easiest thing would have been to walk, or to live a lie.

I don't doubt that they'll be pissed at me - I've said as much several times. But this is seriously typical. I think there should be a corollary to the old phrase: "Hell hath no fury like a woman that sees another who's been scorned."

Or in this case, one who was unlucky enough to be in a sh!tty situation, and was treated with honesty, respect, and a belief that she was a big enough girl to handle tough feelings, that many women would fight for.

[dchester]

FA,

I've thought about it again (as per your request), and I still don't understand the motivation for all the emotion in your posts. We are all just casual observers. OT, his girlfriend, and her sister are the ones that I would expect to be emotional. I don't have the time to go into everything I would like to say right now, but some of your posts had so much venom in them, that I actually started wondering if NR had hijacked your account. He has tried and failed miserably to get this group to implode. Now it's almost like you are doing it for him.

It certainly appears that this event has somehow triggered a strong response in you, but please remember, there are three people going through a difficult situation. You don't have to agree with all of OT's decisions, but it is clear to me, that he is trying to do the right thing. Is it asking too much, to try to be supportive while you express your opinions about OT's decisions?

Also, as for your analogy, if my wife (we'll celebrate our 21st anniversary next month) told me that my brother made a pass at her, I would be greatful to know the truth. Sure it would effect my relationship with my brother, but in addition to feelings, reality also matters to me.

I will repeat my opinion. He did not cheat. He told the truth. He acted honorably. I also hope that in the end he stays with his girlfriend. (but I realize what they feel and want, is far more important, than what we feel and want).

I wish them well.
________
vaporizers (http://vaporizers.net/)

[Undertaker #59]

I have to say that I am little baffled by your posts too Alice. It seems out of character for you to have such venom in this. I can understand disagreeing with him, but I don't think he deserves the name calling. I can only presume that yesterday's events are affecting your behaviour, which would be understandable.

I am sorry if this is out of line for me to say here and I only have the best interests of the board and its members in mind.

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Remember, too, that you don't need to feel compelled to say anything about your feelings for her sister.

Again, I really recommend you decouple the issues. Keep it to your relationship with the g/f. That's what this is about between the two of you at this point, anyway. I think you need to ask yourself what you would accomplish at this point even bringing her sister into it. Probably nothing or worse than nothing.

Once your relationship with G/F is sorted out (and ended)...given time...you may be able to develop something with the other woman that feels good and healthy and without the spectre of "Betrayal" for either one of you.
Okay, I was pissed off before, but I think this post is the crux of the whole issue.

There is no way that I could divorce the issues of my relationship with G/F and my feelings for Sister. There is just no way to do it. Were it not for my feelings for Sister, I would be happy as a clam with G/F, and she'd have a ring by now. I love her very deeply. I do truly believe that I'd have been happy as her husband.

But that can't happen, BECAUSE of her sister. Now that I know she's there, know her, respect her, love her, how could I? And why should I have to give up on both because they happen to be related? REALPOLITIK? Sorry, there's more here than diplomacy, and everybody feeling O.K.

From where I'm sitting, what's right is right, and a girl deserves to know why a relationship ends, even if the reason is as bland as "this just isn't working out, we're not a good fit." In this case, it isn't that simple. But in this case, there's even more of a reason why she needed to know: 1) because except for that reason, I would have stayed with her - I love and respect her; and 2) she would have found out no matter what, even if I tried to hide it.

So anyway, that's that. They've got a lot to talk about, I'll be as involved as they want me to be. If you want, I'll keep you posted, but it sounds like this whole thing made a lot of you uncomforatble. If so, I'll just let it die. In any case, its time to get some work done, because my clients could give a sh!t about my personal life, right?

Tex

[spiderman]

Wow this thread is completely out of control.

And I agree that an all too familiar "melt-down" seems to be happening for unknown reasons.

Tex, you made a good point that too many people are giving way too specific advice about a situation that they know VERY little about. I have to say I couldn't begin to understand the types of people the 3 of you are...

...2 virgins and a guys who tells it how it is.

Also FA, I'm not sure what you said about the situation in Iraq but I guess you are looking for a giant pat on the back?! -not sure where that came from, or what it has to do with this???

[spiderman]

I am amazed at how much some of you can write in such a short amount of time.

My attention span is such that it probably takes me about 10 times longer to read some of these posts then it does for you guys to write them.

It truly is remarkable.

As far as the situation, I don't think Oed came on here so much for advice, I think he was looking for a place to pour out the thoughts that were consuming his brain.

FA, you seem to have some issues when it comes to people not taking your advice...I'm getting the feeling that this is the source of your anger.

[thomas144]

Originally posted by spiderman
I am amazed at how much some of you can write in such a short amount of time.

My attention span is such that it probably takes me about 10 times longer to read some of these posts then it does for you guys to write them.



you're doing better than I am. I'm just looking for the photos.

let's see the pictures of these women!

[spiderman]

Originally posted by thomas144
you're doing better than I am. I'm just looking for the photos.

let's see the pictures of these women!

Which really is the only reason that I keep coming back here during the off-season.

The rest of this stuff is just gravy...no offense o:-)

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Ah yes. When a woman says something strongly, it's rage. When a man does, he's simply strong. Right?

First of all, leave WYO out of this. The issues and anger here really seem directed toward me me as I take it. We don't gang up as a sisterhood. I don't speak for her and she doesn't speak for me. I have my own mind. And I know damn well that she does. If both of us have our suspicions about what's really going on here, they come from different places.

But if Oedipus thinks that the ongoing fascination with this thread on the part of the two sisters has more to do with their anger with me or WYO than their devastation over how he's handled this, then I think he's ultimately in for an unpleasant surprise.
Never once did I say this, Alice. I said that she didn't get pissed UNTIL she read your posts, not that she was pissed AT YOU.

Get this through your heads. Go back to my very first post on this subject. I have never believed that it would be wise to stay with his girlfriend if he didn't love her. Never.

This is where I take issue. There is nothing honorable about revealing to someone every last nuance of their decision to end a relationship. Nothing.
Of course, because its much nicer not to explain why a yearlong relatioinship is being abruptly ended. And remember, I'm not trying to end a relationship. I'm trying to convert it. My ultimate (and, I think achievable) goal is to ensure a continued relationship with these women as friends at minimum.
There is nothing honorable about revealing to a woman that that her sister came onto him. Nothing.
Really? If your sister came onto your husband, you wouldn't want to know? Maybe in the head-in-the-sand way, but not REALLY. You'd really feel comfortable that he kept that from you? I don't buy it.

And there is nothing honorable about pointing either of them toward an anonymous board in which everything from a woman's sexual attractiveness to a potential gang-bang is discussed.
You need to relax, Alice. They're fully aware that Sister is a smoker. We've all discussed it. We discuss a lot of this stuff openly and honestly. In this instance, it particularly sucks because G/F was secure enough to think that it wasn't an issue in this case. To be perfectly honest, I'm not so certain it was - Sister is perfect for me in a lot of other ways...she happens to be gorgeous.

There's nothing honorable about any of this. And frankly, it suggests to me (for all his rhetoric to the contrary) that Oedipus doesn't really respect these women. That he hasn't slept with either one of them sounds like it has more to do with their self-control. Not his.
Alright, now I'm insulted. My self-control had nothing to do with it. Of course it was a topic of discussion. As I said, I don't think pre-marital sex is wrong, I'm not a virgin, and I'm not made of stone. Yes, it had a lot to do with G/F's self control, and the firmness of her beliefs. (As for Sister, WTF??? It was never an issue.)
I respect the hell out of both of them. Enough that I didn't feel the need to pussy foot around this, and enough that I think they can deal with reality...and guess what? As it turns out they knew what the reality was anyway, without my help! Amazing what these self-affirming modern women are capable of, isn't it?

And it may be convenient right now for Oedipus to try to villify me. But the truth is that this mess is completely his own making. And if Oedipus doesn't like the direction this thread and his "Love relationships" are going, then he needs to think about what he put in motion. Because he's the one who put it in motion. And if he doesn't like my posts, then next time he may need to think about sharing this kind of information with people he doesn't know and whose reaction would be very hard to gauge and anticipate.
Fair enough - but be honest, Alice. The only reason I villified you (and I'm not sure I did, I just said that you were being incredibly presumptuous) is that you totally flew off the handle and made a whole handful of accusations that you couldn't possibly have a basis for. I certainly can't claim to be either good or dedicated enough of a writer to put across enough information for you to have the sort of insight that you claim.

Oedipus may want to ask himself why he doesn't have friends he could trust who know him and the women in question. The fact that he had to go to a Bulletin Board System for advice about this speaks volumes. And what it has to say does not bode well for him. Intimacy..with self and others...requires the ability to speak honestly as well as when to shut one's mouth. And..to be able to develop relationships in which you can elicit trustworthy advice. Someone who comes to a board for this kind of advice clearly has difficulty with intimacy. And does not have the maturity to enter any relationship of significance.
As I've stated before, I came to this board BECAUSE it was anonymous. How much worse would this be if I had talked to a friend...this is pretty juicy stuff here...how many of your friends would be able to not talk about it? Don't you think I wanted to hear multiple people's input on how to handle this? How much worse would it be if I ended up coming to the same decision that I came to, and she later found out that my friends knew I was ending the relationship before she did? C'mon, Alice, you're better than that.

As I've also stated, my social life does mostly revolve around these two - I work roughly 70 hours a week, and I'm essentially always on call to make sure my clients are happy. Many of my closer male friends are back in Metro Boston, from my college days.

I think Oedipus should take this as profound learning experience and wake-up call. If you sense too much strength in my rhetoric, it's because I feel it necessary to counteract the remarkable amount of collusion going on here that suggests to this boy that he has handled this situation well. He hasn't.

I will never know Oedipus. I will never know where life takes him. Thank god. But as a betting woman I'm guessing that years from now he will still remember this event. And he will see my comments quite differently than he sees them now. I don't think he'll ever thank me. But he'll understand my point.
You sound very proud of yourself. Congratulations. It isn't that I don't understand your point - I do. I just think you're wrong. Is it that hard to fathom?

To answer Oedipus's question. No, I have never, thank god, received from someone who claimed to love me the sort of treatment and lack of consideration and regard that he just dished out. But I'm not passing moral judgement on the man. I'm simply stating that he's a fool.
Lack of consideration and regard? Really. Okay, then, Alice - may you never be with a man who respects you enough to think that you can handle the truth. Happiness awaits.

Again, I suggest you go back and read this thread as if your wife had started this discussion at PatriotsPlanet about your brother. Then left you. Then arrogantly asserted that she had done the honorable thing because she announced that she was leaving you for your brother before she walked out the door. Then, to top it off, she told you that you could read all about it on football bulletin board system -- on which you read things such as comparing your probable cock sizes. And that you had an okay penis. But she guessed your brother's penis was a lot bigger. And beautifully shaped. Much more so than yours.
This isn't anything new, Alice. Do you know which of your friends are attractive and which...not so much? Quick, who, of your female friends, has a small chest? Give me a break.
The three of us are honest enough with eachother to talk about this stuff - its baby stuff.
My brother is better looking than me. But he's a sh!thead, and treats people like stepping stones, so I don't think I have too much to worry about in regards to losing a girlfriend. Most girls that would be attracted to me wouldn't be attracted to him, and vice-versa.
After G/F met my family, she talked about my brother (well, half-brother) - he ran the marathon, is really fit, is successful, and has thick dark hair and speaks well. We're not friggin children, we discuss things and people.

What Oedipus has done is naive at best and emotional exhibitionism at worst.
Maybe. I don't know. I just came here for a few fresh takes on a situation that I wasn't sure how to handle. I didn't come in here flailing, suicidal, what-have-you. I just knew that I didn't want to talk about this with anyone that knew us, because if I should marry either one of them, its the last thing I want lurking in the background later on.

And according to Oedipus, the sisters are angry with me, are they? Well, well. That's what Oedipus gets for trusting a woman he's never met. Sure did backfire on him, didn't it.
No. Again.

Bideau, I'm surprised that you would encourage this young man in his delusions.

I wonder what's going to happen when these sisters have some of their friends read the board. Eventually, some level-headed buddy is going to take one look at it, slap both of them upside the head and tell them that they need to wake up, smell the coffee and get rid of him.
For the life of me, I can't imagine why they would show it to friends. If so, though, hopefully the friend knows both them and me well enough to know the situation better than you do.

The friend will, if she's smart, encourage both of these girls to get into therapy to ask themselves some very pointed questions such as...

*Did it not bother you to hear crass people you don't know suggesting that your boyfriend try to arrange an incestuous three-way among you? How did that make you feel?
Anyone who knows us well would skip this question. They'd be much more inclined to say: "Incestuous group sex, huh? Not into that?" And laugh.

*Did it not bother you to find out that your sister came onto your boyfriend? How did that make you feel?

*When you read that your boyfriend found you attractive but not as attractive as your sister? Was that hurtful to you? Do you think you really needed to hear this? Why do you suppose he allowed you to read that? How did that make you feel.
Obviously, this stuff sucks. But again, I'm not trying to avoid hurt feelings. I'm trying to be open and honest to attempt to retain a salvagable relationship with these women. They are both very much aware that Sister is beautiful.
D@mn right G/F was bothered to find out that Sister came on to me. I sure didn't suggest otherwise.

Look - the self-esteem stuff that is based on falsehood and delusion is bogus. If you're ugly, accept that you're ugly, look for your inherent value someplace else and move on. This delusional false self-esteem stuff is the reason that so many awful, awful singers end up thinking they can be the next "American Idol." Even when they are told that they can't sing, they end up saying something like: "I know I can sing, I don't care if these 3 professional talent scouts just told me to please never sing again. They don't know anything. I know I'm good."

I'm straight with people whenever I can be. This isn't business, its a personal relationship - so you deal with personal stuff.

*When you read these anonymous posters calling into question your relationship with your sister and whether or not you were trustworthy...how did that make you feel?
I'm sure they felt that it was an obvious misread of the situation. In fact, that's what they told me. They were taken aback, yes, but they recognized it for what it was - people trying to relate a situation that doesn't easily accept pidgeonholing into a category with which they are more familiar, whether from their own lives or the various media.

*When your boyfriend then told the board that you are both 27 an 24 year old virgins....how did that make you feel? Did you feel further exposed? Do you like this information being shared on a board?
Considering that no one knows who they are, and that their proud of the fact that they haven't had premarital sex, and that they're both MORE than attractive enough to have had sex if they so chose, I'm not sure they'd care.
They're pretty up front with the fact that they're virgins, whenever it becomes relevant in any conversation. I think it was relevant here, to try and clear up the mischaracterizations that were going on.

*Do you feel? Do you feel anything? Or are you just numb to life and experience?
Please.

And when either of them tell the therapist that they are logical, rational girls and none of this makes them feel badly at all...that Oedipus is an honorable man and that they love each other to pieces, that they are each other's best friend, the therapist will smile, pause and say.

Tell me...how do you really feel?
Um. Again, they feel badly. Their pissed, shocked, whatever you want. But their handling pretty rationally. I expect that they're gonna go through various phases of being pissed at eachother, pissed at me, guilty, etc. That's normal, it makes sense. There may be some other stuff that doesn't make sense. Fine. But believe me, they're feeling it.

All of us joke about stuff when we're uncomforatable. Their reactions make a lot of sense to me.

Helluva thread! Great entertainment, eh?

Might make our top ten for the year.
Ease up, Alice. This isn't for entertainment. Posters took it seriously, and offered serious suggestions. Don't paint it as something it's not.

[spiderman]

As far as the advice thing...just an observation, you seem obsessed with getting Oed to see things YOUR way...and with every response he gives you seem to become more angry.

As far as "Got ya on that one?" This plays along closely with your ODD reference to the Iraq war. Being correct, and furthermore being PROVEN correct seem to be VERY important to you.

Who knows exactly why Oed chose this format, different people do different things.

Only time will tell how things will turn out for Oed...

...and if it turns out that you were correct, then we'll all give you a great big pat on the back!

How's that sound?

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Reading this thread and commenting on it (which it will probably take all weekend to do if done properly) just proves how easy it is to push someone to lash out.

Is it any wonder that a previous board member that was a tad off kilter in the mental capacity completely lost it among friends? It's easy to go off on someone when they're not in front of you.

(my opinion based upon posts that I read)

The Internet is real world - it is just not the same kind of real world that we go to work in each day or even see in a bar or restaurant. This can probably be debated until the end of time, but you will not convice me otherwise no matter how hard you try.

I have friends on the Internet, some of you I would like to call friends, though I have never met any of you, and it is likely that I never will. This does not change how I interact with any of you. I realize that not everyone is this way, but there are people just like this in real life - sometimes you will never know who those people are.

It's a different dynamic here, and I don't disparage Oed for coming here to bounce thoughts off of us, Nor will I judge. I'm all for hating political correctness - but name calling (Idiot - Dope, Jerk, etc.) never got anyone anywhere but back to the beginning scene in 2001: A Space Odyssey where monkeys were throwing sticks and stones.

This is a community that will have just as much life and thought as real people will put into it. It's not going to be perfect.

But who wants perfect? How boring.

Not sure what my comments have to do with anything, but I wanted to say something here. That's my two bits.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
No annihilus. This isn't the same as the real world. If you think that, you're mistaken. What happens online and what happens in life should remain separate.

I didn't mean it is the real world. It is A real world. Just different from the one we actually live in. The Internet world will grow and change over time and probably be unrecognizable by the time we are old.

The direction the community, or 'Internet World' take will depend upon how it is used by us that are lucky enough to have it in its infancy.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. And that's what makes life and this world so great. I can do that and still respect you as a person.

Even if I've never met you.

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Well, first of all....I never became enraged. I became shocked. And I suppose since I started the board, I feel a certain...protectiveness of it. As well as it posters. What this young man has done is screwed himself over in a way that none of you can imagine. But it's his life. It's his choice.

He has the warmth of all your fellowship to convince him that he's done the right thing in the right way. And that his behavior is honorable and commendable. Certainly only good things can come to a man as noble as this. Certainly the gods will look upon him with great favor. We shall see him immortalized in Plutarch's lives.

On the other hand, I beg to differ. And I'm not sure that we shall see. But Oedipus will most certainly see. And he'll remember this exchange for the rest of his life. Of that, I assure you.

How's that sound?

I think I'm going to change my name to Cassandra.
Do you find it helpful or harmful, overall, to go through life so certain that you are right about everything?

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Well, here's the thing. I suppose I no longer respect Oedipus as a person. I like him. I think he's often charming. I feel affection for him and wish him the best. Watching him do what he's done to himself pains me. But respect him? No. I don't, anymore.

And I'm afraid that Oedipus is going to find more of that reaction as he goes about his daily existence.

Nothing wrong with that.

But at this point your metaphor is quite flawed. The internet is NOT a real world. It can hurt you, for sure. Like nightmare's can hurt you. But it is a place of fantasy -- as our avatars attest. The foolishness of encouraging an integration of online life with that of your daily existence is dangerous indeed. The intimacy seems very easy to develop. It's quite a simple thing to believe that you know someone. But you don't. Not really.

Well, I don't see it as a metaphor - but that's also your opinion. You can't convince me otherwise. Nor can you convince my of my 'foolishness'. Dreamers made this country. Dreamers make the world. Dreamers make fantasy and nightmares both. You can look at Nazi Germany for the evil side of that equation. The world is what you make of it.

The intimacy seems very easy to develop? Yep - you're right about that. That's both got its advantages and disadvantages that I think are obvious to us both.

When you say it's quite a simple thing to believe that you know someone - that's absolutely no different from real life. There are people I've known my entire life that have turned out to have sides of them that I never could have guessed.

Be very careful in the future gentlemen, from imagining that the real world and an online world should be at all integrated. Not at this point it shouldn't. Maybe one day. Maybe one day in our lifetimes we'll be walking around some data-matrix in a William Gibson novel.

Ok, that may or may not be a little silly - who knows. But that's not exactly what I was going for. The world is and has been changing and evolving for millions of years. Hell just two hundred years ago Television and Phones would have been considered witchcraft. I don't pretend to know how life & technology will evolve over the next few hundred years.

But for now...no. Be careful, lest you fall into online affairs, become stalked or stalkers, ruin your marriages, lose money, destroy your chances for happiness, what-have-you... all because you believed -- foolishly -- that this place represents any sort of real world.

All done just as easily enough in the real world. Millions of people do it every day. It's not the virtual world that causes these problems. It's just another medium to do it in.

It's not. And I should know. I founded this world.

Careful, gentlemen. Careful.

Ok, so you're Al Gore now? Did you invent the Internet? (:D - that was a joke, by the way. In no way am I making light of this discussion or you).

And here I thought I would plod through the day without inspiration.

[bideau]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Damn. You found me out.:D

That would explain the uncharacteristic behavior. With the DNC right around the corner, you must be feeling some pain.

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Well, here's the thing. I suppose I no longer respect Oedipus as a person. I like him. I think he's often charming. I feel affection for him and wish him the best. Watching him do what he's done to himself pains me. But respect him? No. I don't, anymore.

And I'm afraid that Oedipus is going to find more of that reaction as he goes about his daily existence.

But at this point your metaphor is quite flawed. The internet is NOT a real world. It can hurt you, for sure. Like nightmare's can hurt you. But it is a place of fantasy -- as our avatars attest. The foolishness of encouraging an integration of online life with that of your daily existence is dangerous indeed. The intimacy seems very easy to develop. It's quite a simple thing to believe that you know someone. But you don't. Not really.

Be very careful in the future gentlemen, from imagining that the real world and an online world should be at all integrated. Not at this point it shouldn't. Maybe one day. Maybe one day in our lifetimes we'll be walking around some data-matrix in a William Gibson novel.

But for now...no. Be careful, lest you fall into online affairs, become stalked or stalkers, ruin your marriages, lose money, destroy your chances for happiness, what-have-you... all because you believed -- foolishly -- that this place represents any sort of real world.

It's not. And I should know. I founded this world.

Careful, gentlemen. Careful.
Interestingly, I think we're now arguing while being in agreement.

What you're saying is EXACTLY why I came here. It is 1) anonymous (relatively speaking, of course, I'm well aware of the tracking capabilities, etc.); 2) likely to illicit a fairly broad range of responses; and 3) essentially divorced from reality. While in general I bring things to friends (as opposed to therapists, as I referenced earlier) an internet board is an excellent alternative in that it provides secrecy, more or less, while enabling short-takes on a situation.

If it provides entertainment to others, then that's fine, too. I'm glad I could help. The girls don't care, really, they "play" on the internet a pretty decent amount of the time. I expected it, deflected most of it, and got a decent amount of solid advice and different takes on the situation. You yourself commented on how much of the advice was pretty sound.

In the end, DolFan's advice about being honest (not so much the threesome, though ;) ) about the whole thing struck the most resonant chord with me, sort of affirmed what I thought the right thing to do was.

I don't know what I would have done with this is Sister hadn't showed her hand. I may very well have taken your advice, Alice (I think it was yours, among others) of breaking off the relationship, and waiting to see if something developed with Sister. I'm not sure I'll ever know.

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by FalllingAlice
Superior aren't you? Are you going to let her say these things about you OED? That is beyond unprofessional and umoderatorial. It is an outright insult. Every man on this board should be offended by this "attitiude." Gobsmacked? You aren't seriously just going to take that?

If you ask nicely maybe she will let you be the man next time.....

ROFL
She's been insulting me for 3+ pages, hoss. That's fine, I can take it.

I'm not a real big believer that moderators need to be above the fray, just that they need to not let their powers come into play when their posting.

And BTW, read...she was saying she was gobsmacked. Do you even know what it means? It's not an insult (though I could see why it would be taken that way, broken into its component parts).

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by FallingAlice


And I must say, if there is anything that probably fuels my sense of alarm and concern for you and strength of my reaction, it's not some angry feminism nor some past wound left unacknowledged and unhealed. Rather, it's that I have been given quite a bit of pause lately thinking about the dangers of the internet. One of the things I make a habit of never doing is meeting anyone on the board. And that has served me in good stead. I don't share personal information and I don't integrate my personal and private life with what happens on the board. And given recent developments I can only say, that these have been EXTREMELY wise decisions. Thank god that I kept as many boundaries around my relationship with many people on this board as I do. Had I not? I might be a very nervous woman right now. Remember that, Oed. And you too, Annihilus. An online community provides you none of the usual safety nets afforded in the real world. Your social group has no personal contact, can't identify each other. There are not the same social and civic relationships that mediate and control interpersonal contact. It's a hidden and shadowy world.

Soon, in fact, I'll be putting up a post about my own plans at the moment, relative to my own participation on the board.

Truly. Be careful.

And good luck.

Thanks for the advice FA - I know it was given with best of intentions. However I refuse to live in fear of whack-jobs wherever they reside, be it here or in the real world. I've dealt with them in both places.

And in both places I really didn't have a problem telling them that they could place their lips on my ass if they crossed any boundaries that I set for myself.

I wouldn't blame you if you were nervous - but I'm not about to be. No one but me will dictate what I do with my life. I don't care how deranged they are.

[Spinal Tap]

Hey guys, sorry to be jumping into the melee out of nowhere. I just read from OED's description of "the last date", all the way to this thread. It took me quite some time (I'm a bit slow in my brain :p ), but I do want to say something.

To the ex-girlfriend & ex-girlfriend's sister: Sorry about suggesting that Oed should try to "bang you both" or have a "threesome". If I had known you were going to read this thread I would not have made such rude suggestions. If I offended either of you in any way, I apologize. It's that damn testosterone talking again!

To Oed: I haven't attempted to give you any real advice on this issue, mainly because I was stumped on the issue. It definately took big balls to just lay it out the way you did. However, feelings are often uncontrollable and eventually you would have had no choice but to address it. I certainly do NOT envy you right now, this situation really, really sucks and I do feel as though you've done the right thing. However, I think you made a big mistake by directing them to this website. I don't think they needed to read this thread. You should have kept this to yourself.

To Alice: I respect your opinion, but I think you need to lay off Oed. I don't want to get into an arguement with you or anybody else over something that essentially doesn't concern me. It shouldn't concern you so much either. Let it be.

Wyo: Stop analyzing people. As Alice stated earlier, this is not the real world, therfore how can you collect enough accurate information about people to give them your "professional" opinion. Nobody comes to a football message board to get their brain picked. To me, this whole thing is all in good fun. That's why I have a tough time giving someone I really don't know any advice. I think you should do the same. Again, just my opinion, not looking to fight. (i've got work to do damnit!)

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
No, we're not saying the same thing, Oed. I'm telling you that the issues you were dealing with were so difficult and with such potentially awful consequences for you that this is not the proper place to bring them. And I suspect that you are so in a haze at the moment and not thinking properly, that you have been too terribly revealing. Revealing things that need not be revealed. And I also suspect, quite strongly, that there's more than a little impulse in you that wanted to screw this up. If there wasn't, you wouldn't have handled it this way. And perhaps that says a lot. If it doesn't work out, perhaps that's what you wanted. But oh, what a terrible dive your reputation will take in all this.
I disagree with most of this.

First, its sort of my call where to air my laundry, dirty or clean. If it made people uncomfortable, I apologize - but don't read, then. It's not like neighbors incessantly fighting below you, its one thread that you don't have to click on. I got some solid takes on the situation, and interesting advice from all quarters. Fine.

Second, I don't worry about being too revealing. Life's too short for secrets. Here's what you all know about me:
1) I live in Dallas. I believe that I once mentioned that I live near Pioneer Park. If I didn't, I did now.
2) I'm (was, I guess) dating a 27 year old Irish virgin. She has a 24 year old sister. Both are beautiful, attractive women. The younger one is a brunette. Their father's name is Sean, or at least that's what I call him.
3) I grew up in Britain, went to school in Boston
4) My first name, and my age.

Congrats to anyone who cares. I'm not too worried about it. I just try not to give anyone any real reason to worry me.

If someone wanted to, they could trace my IP address, I guess. But why would they? To spook me? Again, I've got too many other things to worry about. Life is dangerous sometimes, and you take it as it comes. I don't seek out danger, but I'm not going to edit myself here to try and prevent some crime with no motive. Now, I'm not going to be giving you my bank account numbers or anything... ;)
Remember...I didn't tear you a new one until I read about the fact that you told your g/f about this place. If you'd never done that, you would've received a very different response from me. I still wouldn't have been especially hopeful for the end result, but...I wouldn't have torn into you as I did. And I tore into you, strangely, because I like you. And I think you mean well. And I think you're terribly naive. Especially about affairs of the heart. And I expect that you are going to be terribly, terribly hurt.
I'm already terribly hurt. But I'm hurt and can look myself in the mirror.

In short, my dear, I think you've been played like a fiddle. Not by bad women. But by two sisters whose own personal family history and drama are playing themselves out through you. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me at all, if this sort of thing hadn't happened before with them.
And there's the misread. I said before that it hadn't. Are they aware that daughter #2 is prettier? Yes. I asked the other night if it had happened before, and they agreed that it hadn't. There just isn't much drama in the family, except that things seem to come very easy for Sister, and not quite as much for G/F. They're all pretty low key.

I adore you Oed. Perhaps my maternal impulses were simply inappropriately directed toward you. I hope it works out for you.

And I must say, if there is anything that probably fuels my sense of alarm and concern for you and strength of my reaction, it's not some angry feminism nor some past wound left unacknowledged and unhealed. Rather, it's that I have been given quite a bit of pause lately thinking about the dangers of the internet. One of the things I make a habit of never doing is meeting anyone on the board. And that has served me in good stead. I don't share personal information and I don't integrate my personal and private life with what happens on the board. And given recent developments I can only say, that these have been EXTREMELY wise decisions. Thank god that I kept as many boundaries around my relationship with many people on this board as I do. Had I not? I might be a very nervous woman right now. Remember that, Oed. And you too, Annihilus. An online community provides you none of the usual safety nets afforded in the real world. Your social group has no personal contact, can't identify each other. There are not the same social and civic relationships that mediate and control interpersonal contact. It's a hidden and shadowy world.
I've met a grand total of 1 online person IRL. I'm not worried about doing it, I'm just not real motivated to do it. But in terms of fear and secrets and terror, its just not all its cracked up to be. A few incidents get blown out of proportion.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex
If someone wanted to, they could trace my IP address, I guess. But why would they? To spook me? Again, I've got too many other things to worry about. Life is dangerous sometimes, and you take it as it comes. I don't seek out danger, but I'm not going to edit myself here to try and prevent some crime with no motive. Now, I'm not going to be giving you my bank account numbers or anything... ;)



You seem like a pretty decent guy to me Oed. Can you give me the pin number for your bank card?

I'm doing a psychological profile of people based upon their chosen Pin #'s. I expect fantastical results.

NR - if you haven't been banned yet (again) - I'd love to have your Pin #. I imagine I could write an entire thesis with it....

:D

[Oedipus Tex]

Originally posted by Spinal Tap
Hey guys, sorry to be jumping into the melee out of nowhere. I just read from OED's description of "the last date", all the way to this thread. It took me quite some time (I'm a bit slow in my brain :p ), but I do want to say something.

To the ex-girlfriend & ex-girlfriend's sister: Sorry about suggesting that Oed should try to "bang you both" or have a "threesome". If I had known you were going to read this thread I would not have made such rude suggestions. If I offended either of you in any way, I apologize. It's that damn testosterone talking again!

To Oed: I haven't attempted to give you any real advice on this issue, mainly because I was stumped on the issue. It definately took big balls to just lay it out the way you did. However, feelings are often uncontrollable and eventually you would have had no choice but to address it. I certainly do NOT envy you right now, this situation really, really sucks and I do feel as though you've done the right thing. However, I think you made a big mistake by directing them to this website. I don't think they needed to read this thread. You should have kept this to yourself.

To Alice: I respect your opinion, but I think you need to lay off Oed. I don't want to get into an arguement with you or anybody else over something that essentially doesn't concern me. It shouldn't concern you so much either. Let it be.

Wyo: Stop analyzing people. As Alice stated earlier, this is not the real world, therfore how can you collect enough accurate information about people to give them your "professional" opinion. Nobody comes to a football message board to get their brain picked. To me, this whole thing is all in good fun. That's why I have a tough time giving someone I really don't know any advice. I think you should do the same. Again, just my opinion, not looking to fight. (i've got work to do damnit!)
Thanks, Tap.

I'm still okay with directing them here. While their working things our amongst themselves, they can sort of see my dim little brain and heart working on the situation, too. I didn't say anything here that I wouldn't say to them. Hell, most of it, in its component parts, I HAVE said to them.

[DolFan]

Originally posted by Oedipus Tex

In the end, DolFan's advice about being honest (not so much the threesome, though ;) ) about the whole thing struck the most resonant chord with me, sort of affirmed what I thought the right thing to do was.

If you took my advice, you're more ****ed up than I thought. I was rooting for the threesome all the way. I was just trying to steer you in the right direction.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

If so - I can hardly say I'm surprised at this point. :(

[honk]

If you can look at her sister than you should not be looking at rings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would agree with previous posters that either: the younger sister will want a relationship and it will destroy her relationship with the family, or she will reject you and tell her sister and that will be the end of you.

This girl had given you 18 months of her life. To me it sounds like you really just see her as a friend at this point. If this is true make a clean break. It's not like there aren’t several billion other women in the world besides her sister.

I have two sisters and if I found out my boyfriend had made a play for one of them ( and they would tell me) it would not be a pretty scene. I doubt any woman would trust your ability to be faithful after that. Sorry but true. :Lecture:

[Undertaker #59]

honk,

See this thread (http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?threadid=6417) and this one (http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?threadid=6548) for updates.

[Oedipus Tex]

Update:

To anyone who cares, I'm still with "Sister," though my time has been much more limited of late. Things have smoothed out significantly with regards to my Ex.

This past weekend, I actually had dinner with the family, and it went pretty smoothly. As I understand it, there's a pretty decent mess between the sisters that goes back to before I was in the picture (as I surmised from my Ex's outburst - and some of you picked up on that from the dialogue.) This situation has brought some of this to the surface again, which is a short term problem but probably a longer term benefit, from what I can tell.

The clincher to the whole thing is that Ex seems to really understand that Sister and I are really a great match.

I'm told that she's only been on a handful of dates since I dropped this bomb, though.

[Hawg73]

I have to admit to a little amazement that things are working out as well as they are for you. You definitely have beaten the odds.

One question, though.

When the ex finally does hook up with someone, do you think you will be terribly jealous--or do you think she will try and make you feel that way?

[Oedipus Tex]

She's been a little like that, Hawg, trying to stir up the jealousy. She's started to get back into the swing a little big, brought another guy home. He's an a$$hole from what I can tell, and I don't see a future there. Of course, I might be overprotective in a brotherly way, or I might be jealous.

In any case the 3 of us (occasionally the 4 of us) still hang out, and I'm still with Sister. She's pretty amazing. Though a total slob, still.

[Undertaker #59]

You should write a screenplay of this and try and make a movie. Its an amazing story.

[Oedipus Tex]

Yeah, what say the three of us send this thread, just as is, to Project Greenlight?

Ex has had some times where she's suddenly not been in the mood to be around us. She's called me from time to time and been upset. I know that she's done the same to her sister. But overall, it hasn't been too bad.