Recent history of the second round

[Hawg73]

34...48....55.

No, those are not the measurements of the winner of the "Miss Pear-Shaped Massachusetts" pageant, but rather the overall picks we own in the second round of the upcoming '09 draft and since the word on the street is that we have had our issues finding decent players there I decided to review what we have done in the second since the year 1 Anno Belichick:


Year Overall Player

08 62 Terrence Wheatley
07 No pick
06 36 Chad Jackson
05 No pick
04 63 Marquise Hill
03 36 Eugene Wilson
03 45 Bethel Johnson
02 65 Deion Branch
01 48 Matt Light
00 46 Adrian Klemm

Not a great track record, for sure. Only one starter still with the team and 4 guys that could be termed total busts. It is borderline abysmal.

So, then I took a look at the last 3 drafts and jotted down a few names to see what some other teams have done if for no other reason than to make me feel better:

'08 32 Phillip Merling DL - Fins
38 John Carlson TE Seattle
42 Eddie Royal WR Broncos
44 Matt Forte RB Bears
49 Desean Jackson WR Eagles

'07 34 Paul Posluszny LB Bills
35 Aaron Sears OL Bucs
37 Eric Weddle S Bolts
47 David Harris LB Jets
51 Steve Smith WR Giants
60 Samson Satele C Fins

'06 33 Demeco Ryans LB Texans
34 D'Quell Jackson LB Browns
45 LenDale White RB Titans
47 Darryn Colledge OL Packers
48 Cedric Griffin DB Vikings
53 Anthony Fasano TE Cowboys
57 Devin Hester KR/WR Bears
60 Maurice Jones-Drew RB Jags

I'm cherry picking, of course, and some of the other guys selected that I didn't list would be approximately as bad as some of the Pats choices listed above, but the point I'm trying to make is that we could end up with some guys that are capable of doing some fine things in this league and we have a bunch of chances to get it right.

Let's break the 2nd round curse this year.

[Box_O_Rocks]

Quoted to save for posterity's sake since that damned Bot modifying/molesting Scaryclown has his first post eating bacteria running wild and free throughout the forums.

Oh, and for the record Miss Pear-shaped 2009 is 34...47...58 outrageous booty in soooo many ways!34...48....55.

No, those are not the measurements of the winner of the "Miss Pear-Shaped Massachusetts" pageant, but rather the overall picks we own in the second round of the upcoming '09 draft and since the word on the street is that we have had our issues finding decent players there I decided to review what we have done in the second since the year 1 Anno Belichick:


Year Overall Player

08 62 Terrence Wheatley - TBD
07 No pick - wasted on a Miami RFA scrub WR
06 36 Chad Jackson :sulk:
05 No pick
04 63 Marquise Hill - He needed playing time...sad
03 36 Eugene Wilson -Two good years at least paid his dues
03 45 Bethel Johnson - His return skills paid his dues
02 65 Deion Branch - Dumbshit, but he could play and he bought us Randy Moss, Jerod Mayo, and Shawn Crable
01 48 Matt Light - Stud Hoss! Yeehaw!
00 46 Adrian Klemm Ouch!

Not a great track record, for sure. Only one starter still with the team and 4 guys that could be termed total busts. It is borderline abysmal.

So, then I took a look at the last 3 drafts and jotted down a few names to see what some other teams have done if for no other reason than to make me feel better:

'08 32 Phillip Merling DL - Fins
38 John Carlson TE Seattle
42 Eddie Royal WR Broncos
44 Matt Forte RB Bears
49 Desean Jackson WR Eagles

'07 34 Paul Posluszny LB Bills
35 Aaron Sears OL Bucs
37 Eric Weddle S Bolts
47 David Harris LB Jets
51 Steve Smith WR Giants
60 Samson Satele C Fins

'06 33 Demeco Ryans LB Texans
34 D'Quell Jackson LB Browns
45 LenDale White RB Titans
47 Darryn Colledge OL Packers
48 Cedric Griffin DB Vikings
53 Anthony Fasano TE Cowboys
57 Devin Hester KR/WR Bears
60 Maurice Jones-Drew RB Jags

I'm cherry picking, of course, and some of the other guys selected that I didn't list would be approximately as bad as some of the Pats choices listed above, but the point I'm trying to make is that we could end up with some guys that are capable of doing some fine things in this league and we have a bunch of chances to get it right.

Let's break the 2nd round curse this year.I've seen worse - have you noticed Detroit under Matt Millen?

[Hawg73]

It is decidedly specious of you to compare the absolute worst drafting team in the NFL with a team that is up in the top half dozen or so over a comparable period, but since we haven't had a decent argument in a while, this reply should suffice to get one rolling.

First, maybe "history" was stretching it a bit and I waved the red cape over the trades those picks brought us to focus on the guys we actually selected in the draft, but you could have at least mentioned Corey Dillon to :bang: me a little bit harder. Rocks are not supposed to be soft.

Now, the Box I know is a guy that doesn't like whimps and pretenders wearing the silver and blue, so I'm a little puzzled by some of your characterizations of the 2 Squad I listed above. I'm going to counter your brief thumbnails with my own.

Chad Jackson-- no argument necessary. A total bust. We should have known something was up when he showed up in Foxboro wearing a white Yankee hat.

Marquise Hill-- Though it is poor style to speak ill of the dead, poor Marquise was a complete bust. I watched him with great curiosity over his first few seasons and saw zero improvement. He was velcroed to the shirt of anyone that threw a block at him, was slow off the ball, slow with his hands, just slow period. About the only good thing about him as a player was that he looked imposing in pads.

Geno Wilson-- maybe two years is acceptable for you, but not me. He had a great stretch where he would absolutely crush somebody in every game and played solid D and then he simply fell off the face of the earth with injuries that I found suspicious. He didn't seem to really want to play after intially looking good. A huge disappointment, because he had some chops. A puzzling football player.

Bethel Johnson-- made some big plays, but I really don't know what dues he ever paid in Foxboro unless it was to the Jelly of the Month club. A guy who did not want to be great, but was satisfied to show flashes and then coast for a while. I hated him as a 2nd rounder. Another reach.

Deion Branch-- a great pick. No problems with this one.

Matt Light-- Now this is what I want in a 2nd rounder-- a guy that lines up and plays for a long time and doesn't cause anyone a bit of trouble. No, he isn't Jonathan Ogden, but neither was anyone else. A great pick and even better because we swiped him right in front of the Jets.

Adrian Klemm-- Proves that athletic ability don't mean shit in an offensive lineman if you don't have the stomach for violent contact. Great feet. No heart. To sum up my feelings for Mr. Klemm, I felt that if he got in a pass rush drill against the Olsen twins, then he would have handled Ashley (the anorexic version) pretty well, but Mary-Kate would have bull-rushed him as if he were wearing skates. The only aggression he ever showed here was in a road rage incident.

Your serve, sir. :wave:

[Box_O_Rocks]

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2009/03/interview-with-connor-barwin.html

[Box_O_Rocks]

It is decidedly specious of you to compare the absolute worst drafting team in the NFL with a team that is up in the top half dozen or so over a comparable period, but since we haven't had a decent argument in a while, this reply should suffice to get one rolling.Pfft! You wish to contend the second round is some kind of jinx this season, yet in seasons past people said the same about the third round. And which team would you compare the Pats too? If they are so bad in round two, then surely they must be comparable to the very worst?

First, maybe "history" was stretching it a bit and I waved the red cape over the trades those picks brought us to focus on the guys we actually selected in the draft, but you could have at least mentioned Corey Dillon to :bang: me a little bit harder. Rocks are not supposed to be soft.Nonsense, Rocks are cuddly things, sensitive to the delicate feelings of garrulous wildmen. Besides, I was unable to remember what they did with that pick, we can't all be young whipper snappers with perfect recall. :thwak:

Now, the Box I know is a guy that doesn't like whimps and pretenders wearing the silver and blue, so I'm a little puzzled by some of your characterizations of the 2 Squad I listed above. I'm going to counter your brief thumbnails with my own.Oh baby, oh baby! >)

Chad Jackson-- no argument necessary. A total bust. We should have known something was up when he showed up in Foxboro wearing a white Yankee hat. Which only goes to show why I had him nowhere near my board in that draft. I begged BB to wait and draft Chris Gocong with that third rounder he traded up with.

Marquise Hill-- Though it is poor style to speak ill of the dead, poor Marquise was a complete bust. I watched him with great curiosity over his first few seasons and saw zero improvement. He was velcroed to the shirt of anyone that threw a block at him, was slow off the ball, slow with his hands, just slow period. About the only good thing about him as a player was that he looked imposing in pads.Let's see if my imperfect memory can help your recall... Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Vince Wilfork...how were they used their rookie years? I'll let you ponder that and how being able to take game reps while alternating with a veteran might have benefited their development.

Geno Wilson-- maybe two years is acceptable for you, but not me. He had a great stretch where he would absolutely crush somebody in every game and played solid D and then he simply fell off the face of the earth with injuries that I found suspicious. He didn't seem to really want to play after intially looking good. A huge disappointment, because he had some chops. A puzzling football player.Oh-ho! It's okay for Cory Dillon to have one quality season, but poor Geno helping to win two Super Bowls at a new position and battling through injury for two more years (the same as Dillon) gets short shrift in the Hawg bank of tolerance.

Bethel Johnson-- made some big plays, but I really don't know what dues he ever paid in Foxboro unless it was to the Jelly of the Month club. A guy who did not want to be great, but was satisfied to show flashes and then coast for a while. I hated him as a 2nd rounder. Another reach.Teams spend second round picks on Special Teams' Aces all the time, not all of them translate well to offense - Hester had three TDs this year on offense, how does that compare to what he was able to do on Special Teams? Was he really that critical on offense that they could afford the loss on Special Teams? The bums should have bought a WR and left him to disrupt the kicking game.

Adrian Klemm-- Proves that athletic ability don't mean shit in an offensive lineman if you don't have the stomach for violent contact. Great feet. No heart. To sum up my feelings for Mr. Klemm, I felt that if he got in a pass rush drill against the Olsen twins, then he would have handled Ashley (the anorexic version) pretty well, but Mary-Kate would have bull-rushed him as if he were wearing skates. The only aggression he ever showed here was in a road rage incident. I said "ouch!" :shrug:

Your serve, sir. :wave:RavenBHee

[Hawg73]

Pfft! You wish to contend the second round is some kind of jinx this season, yet in seasons past people said the same about the third round. And which team would you compare the Pats too? If they are so bad in round two, then surely they must be comparable to the very worst?

Just because they've blown chunks on some 2nd rounders, doesn't mean the Pats are a bad drafting team. I consider them a good, but not great drafting team and find it a curious anomaly that the 2nd round has been pretty rocky.

I'd put us somewhere between 5th to 10th best over the last five years, but would need to research to support that contention.

Right off the top of my head I like SD, the Giants and Dallas better over that span and probably a few others, but that would be a lot of work to sort out.


Let's see if my imperfect memory can help your recall... Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Vince Wilfork...how were they used their rookie years? I'll let you ponder that and how being able to take game reps while alternating with a veteran might have benefited their development.

All three were productive as rookies. Seymour was the guy that submarined the pile in the snow bowl and stuffed Wheatley on short yardage as a rook. None hit their stride until later, but all got meaningful snaps, something the Pats were unable to do with Hill during his first two full seasons with the team. He never did a thing in two full seasons except get whistled for offsides during garbage time. You can't make the same argument about any of the big three.

I saw cases where, for instance, Seymour got banged up, Hill went in and immediately started fvcking up whereupon Richard was rushed back out there when if Hill was able to hold his own better that would not have been the case. I just thought he was a lost cause who didn't look like he belonged on the field. He even looked overmatched in his 2nd preseason against scrubinies, but lets agree to disagree about him.

Oh-ho! It's okay for Cory Dillon to have one quality season, but poor Geno helping to win two Super Bowls at a new position and battling through injury for two more years (the same as Dillon) gets short shrift in the Hawg bank of tolerance.

It wasn't his first two years I had the problem with. It was his last two where even when he was supposed to be healthy he looked like a regression case and didn't make a thunderous hit during that entire span. He HAD the tools and just didn't or couldn't use them.

Dillon? Point taken, but I put a different set of expectations on a hall of famer that wasn't expected to go forever than an actual draftee that theoretically should be better in his 4th year than his 1st.

Teams spend second round picks on Special Teams' Aces all the time, not all of them translate well to offense - Hester had three TDs this year on offense, how does that compare to what he was able to do on Special Teams? Was he really that critical on offense that they could afford the loss on Special Teams? The bums should have bought a WR and left him to disrupt the kicking game.

Hester is an exception to all rules and was worth a 2nd rounder if he never scores another ST TD. He carried his offenseless team for an entire year and had a historical rookie season. In general, I don't believe the 2nd round is the place to be looking for special teamers. I want my guys to be solid starters by year two or I consider it a bad pick.

Look at the list of guys I supplied who were selected in round two. Some of them are arguably GREAT starters and will be for a very long time. A second rounder should at least be an effective starter and stick around for a few years.

I don't think that is too much to ask.

[Oswlek]

I have long felt that BB/SP used the second round on guys have an elite ability, but aren't necessarily elite prospects or complete players. It is their boom or bust round, so to speak.

BJ - fastest WR at combine
MH - size and athleticism
DB - remarkable agility
CJ - perfect WR body

I don't know about Wheatley, but it do see Light and Wilson as exceptions. Light because NE needed guys they felt they would at least be players and Wilson because he was one of two 2nd rounders. If I were to guess how this 2nd round is going to fall, NE is going to grab one guy who is unlikely to be a probowler, but likely to be a contributor, one guy who makes very little sense but who has an off the charts measurable and one pick will be traded. I will not be surprised if the lower risk guy is picked at the end of the first round with NE hopping over a couple teams from #34.

Oh, and Box, Hill was a complete bust. His lack of growth has little to do with playing time. He just wasn't good. Even games like TN in 06 when NE was trying to give the big guys some rest saw Hill on the field for a nominal amount of snaps. They clearly wanted him out there longer, but he was blown back so easily that BB was forced to trot Warren back out there. I can still recall TN's RB running right through Hill's spot for 3 consecutive 10+ (two over 20) yard runs.

[Box_O_Rocks]

Just because they've blown chunks on some 2nd rounders, doesn't mean the Pats are a bad drafting team. I consider them a good, but not great drafting team and find it a curious anomaly that the 2nd round has been pretty rocky.

I'd put us somewhere between 5th to 10th best over the last five years, but would need to research to support that contention.

Right off the top of my head I like SD, the Giants and Dallas better over that span and probably a few others, but that would be a lot of work to sort out. Well, NY won a SB...

All three were productive as rookies. Seymour was the guy that submarined the pile in the snow bowl and stuffed Wheatley on short yardage as a rook. None hit their stride until later, but all got meaningful snaps, something the Pats were unable to do with Hill during his first two full seasons with the team. He never did a thing in two full seasons except get whistled for offsides during garbage time. You can't make the same argument about any of the big three.

I saw cases where, for instance, Seymour got banged up, Hill went in and immediately started fvcking up whereupon Richard was rushed back out there when if Hill was able to hold his own better that would not have been the case. I just thought he was a lost cause who didn't look like he belonged on the field. He even looked overmatched in his 2nd preseason against scrubinies, but lets agree to disagree about him. Yes, the snow bowl, where NE lined up in a 4-3...be that as it may, all three struggled with technique, Warren and Wilfork were halfway into their second seasons before the light seemed to come on and they began to dominate. Yes, Hill struggled, I don't know what the coaches may have seen in practice that gave them such little confidence to allow him more game reps, it seemed like he was inactive more often then not, but I just remember watching him and thinking he needed to be playing because he was making the same mistakes I saw Wilfork making in early 2005 - thinking or trying to bull his way without it being a routine exercise locked in the muscle memory.

It wasn't his first two years I had the problem with. It was his last two where even when he was supposed to be healthy he looked like a regression case and didn't make a thunderous hit during that entire span. He HAD the tools and just didn't or couldn't use them.

Dillon? Point taken, but I put a different set of expectations on a hall of famer that wasn't expected to go forever than an actual draftee that theoretically should be better in his 4th year than his 1st. That's it, Geno disappointed after two stellar seasons by not repeating. As a long time sufferer of groin pulls I'm here to say they really suck, and I understood his to be a little more severe than any I've had. I never let his injuries weigh against him, it happens, just ask WillieMac. I was disappointed he was unable to be the same without Rodney alongside him, but people have their limitations, healthy and teamed with a good leader he'd have been fine, injured and trying to be the Field Marshall, he was in over his head - crap happens and I'm glad he's found a home in Houston.

Hester is an exception to all rules and was worth a 2nd rounder if he never scores another ST TD. He carried his offenseless team for an entire year and had a historical rookie season. In general, I don't believe the 2nd round is the place to be looking for special teamers. I want my guys to be solid starters by year two or I consider it a bad pick.

Look at the list of guys I supplied who were selected in round two. Some of them are arguably GREAT starters and will be for a very long time. A second rounder should at least be an effective starter and stick around for a few years.

I don't think that is too much to ask.Sure, having those great starters is what we want. We know it was done with Light and Branch, as long as BB listens to me this time we should be okay. :thumb:

[Box_O_Rocks]

I have long felt that BB/SP used the second round on guys have an elite ability, but aren't necessarily elite prospects or complete players. It is their boom or bust round, so to speak.

BJ - fastest WR at combine
MH - size and athleticism
DB - remarkable agility
CJ - perfect WR body

I don't know about Wheatley, but it do see Light and Wilson as exceptions. Light because NE needed guys they felt they would at least be players and Wilson because he was one of two 2nd rounders. If I were to guess how this 2nd round is going to fall, NE is going to grab one guy who is unlikely to be a probowler, but likely to be a contributor, one guy who makes very little sense but who has an off the charts measurable and one pick will be traded. I will not be surprised if the lower risk guy is picked at the end of the first round with NE hopping over a couple teams from #34.

Oh, and Box, Hill was a complete bust. His lack of growth has little to do with playing time. He just wasn't good. Even games like TN in 06 when NE was trying to give the big guys some rest saw Hill on the field for a nominal amount of snaps. They clearly wanted him out there longer, but he was blown back so easily that BB was forced to trot Warren back out there. I can still recall TN's RB running right through Hill's spot for 3 consecutive 10+ (two over 20) yard runs.Good theory.

Os, if Hill was that much of a bust he'd have been gone before that. He frustrated me too, but I still can't help thinking there was more to him than what we saw for BB to keep him around.

[Oswlek]

Good theory.

Os, if Hill was that much of a bust he'd have been gone before that. He frustrated me too, but I still can't help thinking there was more to him than what we saw for BB to keep him around.

I think it was more hope than anything. From all reports he was a terrific human being as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if that factored into things a little.

Realistically, he wasn't kept around that long. Hill was with NE for 3 seasons and IMHO wouldn't have made it onto the roster for a fourth. Bethel Johnson was here for 3 season and CJ two, so Hill wasn't kept around that much longer than other more obvious disappointments.