Official Toni Smith thread....

[spinaltap]

I would like to ask NEM if he knows Toni Smith. The crap that comes out of there brains is similar in texture and smell. My question is, if the United States is soooooo terrible, why do these people take residence here? Why does Toni Smith accept funds from the "evil" US government so she can attend school? Why is she getting so much freakin attention?! Will someone please answer these questions that boggle my mind? thank you.

[dropKickMurphy]

Of course the US Constitution guarantees her Freedom of Speech. This does not, however mean that her school has to provide a public forum for her to express her views. Institutions of higher learning in this country have not exactly distinguished themselves as bastions of free speech in recent years. Quite the opposite. Speech codes and other limits to free speech have been imposed for the purpose of eliminating speech which is deemed "offensive".....as long as it offends the correct group.
To anyone who would defend the actions of Toni Smith, I would ask this question: What would your position be if Ms. Smith had chosen to take the court brandishing a swastika tatoo or a KKK headband?
Face it. Most of the people defending, even praising Smith's actions as 'couragious' would be the first people to call for her head if she took a racially offensive stand. Yet, her little act is every bit as offensive to many Americans as a swastika would be to a concentration camp survivor. If you would defend Toni Smith's actions, would you not also have to defend the words and actions of John Rocker and Marge Schott?

[pookie]

Originally posted by dropKickMurphy
Of course the US Constitution guarantees her Freedom of Speech. This does not, however mean that her school has to provide a public forum for her to express her views. Institutions of higher learning in this country have not exactly distinguished themselves as bastions of free speech in recent years. Quite the opposite. Speech codes and other limits to free speech have been imposed for the purpose of eliminating speech which is deemed "offensive".....as long as it offends the correct group.
To anyone who would defend the actions of Toni Smith, I would ask this question: What would your position be if Ms. Smith had chosen to take the court brandishing a swastika tatoo or a KKK headband?
Face it. Most of the people defending, even praising Smith's actions as 'couragious' would be the first people to call for her head if she took a racially offensive stand. Yet, her little act is every bit as offensive to many Americans as a swastika would be to a concentration camp survivor. If you would defend Toni Smith's actions, would you not also have to defend the words and actions of John Rocker and Marge Schott?

Good comparative view DKM.

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but every time I see that crap with her standing back to the flag I want somebody to kick her right in the chops. But her parents and other adults around her are oh, so proud of her. I enjoyed the video footage that they captured of the old gentleman who is a Vietnam vet running out on the floor and throwing an American flag over her.

Like you said DKM, what if she showed up with Muslims Suck T-shirt? That wouldn't be too cool, would it?

(Source:collegesports.com)

"Smith was greeted by midshipmen at the U.S. Merchant Marine game with chants of "Leave our country" and "U-S-A". Now there's a twisted irony in the fact that the very people who protect our freedom to speak our minds are telling someone who demonstrates that freedom to get the hell out.

Sure, the midshipmen have just as much of a right to speak out against what Smith believes in as she does to make her silent protest. But what is the more American virtue on display here -- standing up in protest for one's beliefs in the face of adversity or telling that person to leave because her views don't mesh with the norm?


(Emphasis added. The irony is entirely your own.)

[bideau]

Originally posted by dropKickMurphy
Of course the US Constitution guarantees her Freedom of Speech. This does not, however mean that her school has to provide a public forum for her to express her views. Institutions of higher learning in this country have not exactly distinguished themselves as bastions of free speech in recent years. Quite the opposite. Speech codes and other limits to free speech have been imposed for the purpose of eliminating speech which is deemed "offensive".....as long as it offends the correct group.
To anyone who would defend the actions of Toni Smith, I would ask this question: What would your position be if Ms. Smith had chosen to take the court brandishing a swastika tatoo or a KKK headband
Face it. Most of the people defending, even praising Smith's actions as 'couragious' would be the first people to call for her head if she took a racially offensive stand. Yet, her little act is every bit as offensive to many Americans as a swastika would be to a concentration camp survivor. If you would defend Toni Smith's actions, would you not also have to defend the words and actions of John Rocker and Marge Schott?

The right of free speech is very complex and I don't pretend to understand the matter in any legal detail. But I do believe that you're stretching your argument with that last statement. I can defend a person's right to state an opinion , but at the same time disagree with what they're saying.

Don't confuse defending Ms. Smith's right to her protest with defending the act itself. She can turn her back to the flag, but people in the stands also have every right to vocalize their opposition to her stand. The same is true for Schott and Rocker. They have a right to vocalize their racist views, but I have every right to condemn them. The KKK has every right to march down Main St. I have every right to stand there and shout them down.

When does free speech cross the lines of being just distasteful and becoming illegal? When does free speech become a hate crime? I'm not entirely sure, but I do know that this thread has the potential to turn into one hell of a flame fest.

[bideau]

One little bit of irony here is that by condemning her, we are actually giving her the forum she sought in the first place. If we had just treated her as the naive little twit that she is, she probably would have gotten bored with the whole thing and eventually given up.

I once heard someone ask: What would happen if the KKK threw a rally and no one showed up to protest?

[spinaltap]

I am looking for anyone (besides NEM) that can give me a GOOD reason why this girl is called "courageous". I think she is a complete coward, not courageous. My view is this: If she hates this country so much she should move to another country, one she loves. This girl is just plain stupid. I am not saying that because she does not hold the same views that I do. I am saying that because she doesn't even know what she is protesting. She is just a little girl who has been brain washed by a bunch of hippies who can't let the Gore thing go. If she really wanted to be courageous, she should reject any federal aid she gets for her tuition.

[pookie]

Originally posted by bideau
.........but I do know that this thread has the potential to turn into one hell of a flame fest.

I hear ya...... and Freedom of Speech is totally exploited by many. It's just one protest after another against anything, anyone, anytime... Whatever the whacko flavor of the month is.

Now we've got the KKK going down to Augusta to protest FOR Augusta National in response to Martha Burk and her cronies protesting against Augusta. What a cluster F that's going to be. While I don't necessarily care which way Augusta goes with their decisions on allowing women into their club, I sure as hell wouldn't want the KKK protesting on my behalf! Yikes.

[bideau]

Originally posted by shurkis
I am looking for anyone (besides NEM) that can give me a GOOD reason why this girl is called "courageous". I think she is a complete coward, not courageous. My view is this: If she hates this country so much she should move to another country, one she loves. This girl is just plain stupid. I am not saying that because she does not hold the same views that I do. I am saying that because she doesn't even know what she is protesting. She is just a little girl who has been brain washed by a bunch of hippies who can't let the Gore thing go. If she really wanted to be courageous, she should reject any federal aid she gets for her tuition.

There are different flavors of courage. A firefighter who rushed into a burning building shows courage in its most sacred and heroic form. A safety who collides head-on with a 230 LB back show courage in a different way. A person who ties an elastic to their ankles and jumps off a bridge is courageous, although its a foolish courage. Is Toni Smith courageous, yes I believe she is, although its a misguided courage. There are not alot of us who would be willing to stand in front of thousands of jeering people to take stand on any issue, misguided or not. I would in turn challenge you to tell us why she's a coward.

For an article in defense of her actions, go to this link on ESPN.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/wiley/030228.html

[pookie]

Originally posted by bideau
There are different flavors of courage. A firefighter who rushed into a burning building shows courage in its most sacred and heroic form. A safety who collides head-on with a 230 LB back show courage in a different way. A person who ties an elastic to their ankles and jumps off a bridge is courageous, although its a foolish courage. Is Toni Smith courageous, yes I believe she is, although its a misguided courage. There are not alot of us who would be willing to stand in front of thousands of jeering people to take stand on any issue, misguided or not. I would in turn challenge you to tell us why she's a coward.

For an article in defense of her actions, go to this link on ESPN.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/wiley/030228.html

I don't know that I'd call her a coward either, as she certainly has some balls or courage, if you will.

But in the same way.... A person that holds up a bank, then gets into a long standoff with armed police and swat teams would also be courageous in that similar type of beligerent way, wouldn't they?

[bideau]

Originally posted by pookie
I don't know that I'd call her a coward either, as she certainly has some balls or courage, if you will.

But in the same way.... A person that holds up a bank, then gets into a long standoff with armed police and swat teams would also be courageous in that similar type of beligerent way, wouldn't they?

Yes, my point exactly. I called her courage misguided. A bank robber has courage, but it in no way is the same type of courage as that firefighter or a soldier fighting in defense of our country. Courage is not always a noble trait.

Originally posted by bideau
One little bit of irony here is that by condemning her, we are actually giving her the forum she sought in the first place.


I am doing anything BUT condemning her. Let's get that much straight. I support her fully. I think the author of the article that I quoted summarized the issues as eloquently and logically as possible.

[bideau]

Originally posted by NoRespect
I am doing anything BUT condemning her. Let's get that much straight. I support her fully. I think the author of the article that I quoted summarized the issues as eloquently and logically as possible.

My irony statement wasn't targeted at anyone specifically. It was meant for those who are so fervently against her, almost to the point of violence. They're trying to shout her down, but in doing so are making the story into a headliner, therfore giving it more publicity than it would have gotten had they just ignored her. People who wouldn't have normally taken a look at what she's trying to say are now looking at the issues.

BTW, here's another bit of irony. I'm defending her right to protest but I haven't got a clear idea what her stand is. Can someone summarize her grievances?

[spinaltap]

She is simply not a courageous person. Courage is a word that is used too often in society today. I think courage is a sacred word that should be used only where applicable. To me, people use courage in the same context that many sports players are referred to as "great" when they are just good. She is a coward because she is not rejecting her federal tuition assistance to make her stand. She is a coward because she enjoys the protection that the US government provides her, rather than denouncing such protection and becoming a citizen of another country. She is a coward because all she does is turn her back to the flag. If she really had any balls, she would be over in Iraq with operation "human shield". Do you think that those nimrods also have courage? I would argue they are just stupid people, much like miss Smith.

[dropKickMurphy]

Originally posted by NoRespect
Sure, the midshipmen have just as much of a right to speak out against what Smith believes in as she does to make her silent protest. But what is the more American virtue on display here -- standing up in protest for one's beliefs in the face of adversity or telling that person to leave because her views don't mesh with the norm?


Come on, NR. Nobody's telling her "to leave because her views don't mesh with the norm". It's not her views, it's the particular method she chooses to get her point across. If she cannot in good conscience stand respectfully during the national anthem, she could have arranged to remain in the locker room until it was over.
The freedom to debate our political differences is a sacred right. We all have a reponsibility to defend it. That means standing up for the rights of people with whom you do not agree. That requires a basic level of respect for their beliefs.
That's where a lot of people have a problem with Smith's actions. It's one thing to disagree with the administration's policies, it's quite another to actively turn your back on the flag in front of a large crowd of American citizens. She is purposely showing disrespect, and her actions are a blatant insult to many....PARTICULARLY to the members of the armed forces. These cadets are graduating during war time. They realize that they, and many of their classmates may very well end up giving their lives in service to this country, defending the rights of a spoiled, misguided young woman to publicly mock what they stand for.
So, what IS the more American virtue on display here? I guess that once again, NR, we view things from a different frame of reference. You do present a thoughtful, reasonable point of view, whereas Ms. Smith demonstrates nothing but scorn for this country. You can stay, but she has got to go.

How can you argue that the right to FREE speech can be abridged and still be free? Answer that one and I am only too happy to continue further on the issue. It is sort of a logical litmus test.

Originally posted by dropKickMurphy
If she cannot in good conscience stand respectfully during the national anthem, she could have arranged to remain in the locker room until it was over.

It is a PROTEST. Method of demonstration is a form of speech. She could have written a pleasant note on some flowery note paper, stamped it with hearts and kisses and nailed it to the wall. No one would have been offended and no one would have noticed. Are you paying attention now? Definition of EFFICACY. Smart girl. She knows not to waste her breath by talking to the wall.

If she has something to say she says it in a manner that gets noticed. You have already stated that you don't disavow her right to disagree -- so you are really making a plea for inefficiency. Was the Tea Party designed for approval or effect?

[Hawg73]

My take on this is fairly simple. I don't really get all worked up over her little show of disdain for the flag. She's a college student at a bastion of liberal thinking. What do you all expect? Virulent patriotism?

Fact is there are many millions of Americans today who are taking stands based on ideals. It isn't just her. For instance, many people today are once again whipping out their magic markers and making posters saying phrases like "No blood for oil" or similar things. This is basically a nice way to look at things. I would hate to think that American servicemen and women will die so that Americans can gas up thier SUVs. Not a bad sentiment and I would love to think it is all that simple. Unfortunately it isn't.

Fact is that lofty and liberal ideal is based on wishful thinking. Gossamer strings and butterfly wings. Fact is that man has been at war since the dawn of civilization and probably always be because human beings are largely warlike beings and it is more true now than ever. Wishing it away will not make it happen, but more likely pave the way for your own destruction.

There are people in this world that would kill us all and then dance in the streets if they could figure out a way to pull it off. Sadly they are still trying to do so, and when and if they are successful they will not differentiate between left wingers and right wingers, peaceniks and hawks, patriots and bleeding hearts.They will simply wipe us out. If you choose not to believe that this is the case then we differ on the matter.

That to me is the fundamental flaw with liberalism today. It gives mankind more credit for being civilized than it deserves. We have to crush or be crushed whether we like it or not.

Survival of the fittest is true in nature in simple forms and in civilization in far more complex forms. At some point you have to make a stand though some of us will die. War is a horrible, tragic, agonizing thing that should be used as a last resort and the protesters in our society help us all to recognize that fact. I just wish that some of them could also realize the terrible necessity of it all and not get lost in starry eyed idealism that will sadly never come true.

I salute my Country and what it stands for, warts and all. I just laugh at her.

[dropKickMurphy]

Originally posted by NoRespect

If she has something to say she says it in a manner that gets noticed. You have already stated that you don't disavow her right to disagree -- so you are really making a plea for inefficiency. Was the Tea Party designed for approval or effect?

"A PLEA FOR INEFFICIENCY"?!?! I don't think so. Do you honestly believe that her only choices are to write a nice flowery note or to take an action that is so insulting to most Americans at such a sensitive moment in our history?
This is not effective protest. The attention she is getting is a natural reaction of outrage. She does NOTHING to promote any intelligent discussion. Any idiot can garner attention. This does not automatically qualify as "effective".
The only reason that she occupies a stage in front of a crowd is that she is a member of a basketball team. She does not have an inherent right to use the arena as a vehicle for her protest. When I suggested she remain in the locker room, I was not suggesting this as a form of protest. I was suggesting this so she would not be forced to face the flag during the National Anthem, an act that would obviously be offensive to her. This is a solution that recognizes and respects the opposing viewpoints. Sometimes we all just want to play and watch a basketball game, without forcing our political views down each others' throats. Do you disagree with that?
Protest? By all means, on her own time at her own place. She did not pay for the arena, she did not gather the crowd. She shamelessly exploits the strong patriotic emotions that Americans are feeling by insulting the nation. NOT protesting the policies of Bush; just insulting the nation. NOT presenting any thoughtful ideas; just insulting the nation.
How would you feel if, say, on Martin Luther King Day, a white player donned a KKK hood and robe during the national anthem on a nationally televised NBA game? That would sure as hell draw plenty of attention to his little "protest". Would you call him a "smart guy" for eliciting a massive emotional response?

[dropKickMurphy]

Originally posted by Hawg73
I salute my Country and what it stands for, warts and all.

Didn't you say the same thing about Felix?

With all due respect, I have to correct a couple of inaccuracies.

Originally posted by Hawg73
What do you all expect? Virulent patriotism?

Patriotism: Love of and devotion to one's country.

Does she "not love" her country by exercising her constitutional right to protest? Quite the contrary. If we lose the right to free speech then everything we have fought to preserve is lost with it. She has put herself in a great deal of risk for what she believes in and anyone who suggests that equates to “cowardice” or a lack of "patriotism" doesn’t understand either concept.

Patriotism knows no political affiliation. Unless you want to imply that you or I must be behind every action of our government in order to be “PATRIOTIC”. How did you feel about the Clinton Administration? Does your answer make you less of a PATRIOT?

...left wingers and right wingers, peaceniks and hawks, patriots and bleeding hearts....

I would ask you to rethink that last pairing carefully...

The opposite of a Patriot is not a liberal -- of any degree. Conservatism of political beliefs does not confer upon you a “higher” morality, enhanced love of your country, or courage (another word that has been universally abused in this discussion.)

[Peg]

dKM--
I try to avoid the political threads, but I just had to reply to this one... First of all, your last one-liner is a hoot & although I know that most people won't "get it", I am LMFAO, as I didn't know that you were privvy to that one... (We REALLY should compare notes, man!)... :)
Secondly, I must say that I TOTALLY concur with what you & Hawg have written above and I could not have expressed it better myself, if my life depended upon it... And trust me when I say that I don't write those words lightly... My Dad served our country from 1950 to 1970 and he would re-up now, if they would let him... There is not a man in this world that I respect more than him & your words mirror things that he has also expressed to me. So, thanks for verbalizing all of this for some of us... God bless ya! :)

[Peg]

Alice--
Although I respect you & your opinion, I definitely disagree with several of your assertions. Perhaps I will address some of the salient points tomorrow, when I am less tired, but I just wanted to comment on one of your final statements: "I wouldn't die for this cause."
No one is asking you to do so... As a matter of fact, EVERY single, solitary person in our armed forces is there VOLUNTARILY. Personally, I know MANY people that decided to join the armed forces or the reserves, since 9/11... I know that may seem remarkable to you, because of your mindset, but there are a lot of people that think otherwise and they have decided to step up to the call of duty and rise to the occasion. Having been raised by a similarly-minded person, I find this sort of attitude admirable. :)

[pookie]

Hey Shurkis... I'll give you $1.00 if you won't post any more politically stirring posts that cause half the "planet's" population to burst into flames and go into a War and Peace novel.

Wow.

[pookie]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Where's the flame war Pookie?

My sense is that there's a discussion going on here. Not a flame war.

Did I say flame war? I thought I typed "burst into flames", as in spontaneous combustion. Does a flame war involve using flame throwers? I've never gotten to try one of them, but I'd sure like to try. I did use a fancy machine gun and a bazooka while in the fox holes during my stint in WWII, but that's neither here nor there.

The discussion began as a post regarding the female basketball player, Toni Smith and her turning her back on the American flag during the National Anthem. It has transgressed into this. Another beast of a political discussion with the finer points of.... ah jeez forget it.... I need to get my nose back in the thesaurus!

I genuinely hope the discussion works out well anyway.... Enjoy!

Originally posted by pookie
Did I say flame war? I thought I typed "burst into flames", as in spontaneous combustion. Does a flame war involve using flame throwers? I've never gotten to try one of them, but I'd sure like to try. I did use a fancy machine gun and a bazooka while in the fox holes during my stint in WWII, but that's neither here nor there.

I genuinely hope the discussion works out well anyway.... Enjoy!

It is a beautiful day in the neighborhood isn't it? :bang:

Too bad we are living in Watts.

That' right Pook, we are just one big happy family. Alice can go on kidding herself that politics belong on this board. I have my own solution. Expect similar postings on all -- and I do mean ALL -- political threads in the future. Isn't FREE SPEECH great?



Sing with me won't you?



<EMBED SRC="http://sg1.allmusic.com/cg/smp.dll?r=20.asx&link=g0w6vt4aom3zbvquddk67af" AUTOSTART=FALSE LOOP=TRUE CACHE=TRUE WIDTH=145 HEIGHT=45 ALIGN="CENTER">
</EMBED>


Howdy Neighbor! :thumb:

[freak]

Originally posted by bideau
When does free speech become a hate crime?

I know I laugh every time I hear something like this?

Hate crime?

WTF?!!!

So it is worse to commit a crime if it is out of hate?

Husband comes home to find his wife cheating on him. He kills both in a rage.

And yet that is somehow less of a crime, than killing someone over their skin color, or sexual preference?

Murder is murder, regardless of the reason it was committed.

The notion that there should be a distinction due to the reason behind CERTAIN types of crimes, is ridiculous.

:banghead:

[bideau]

Originally posted by freak
I know I laugh every time I hear something like this?

Hate crime?

WTF?!!!

So it is worse to commit a crime if it is out of hate?

Husband comes home to find his wife cheating on him. He kills both in a rage.

And yet that is somehow less of a crime, than killing someone over their skin color, or sexual preference?

Murder is murder, regardless of the reason it was committed.

The notion that there should be a distinction due to the reason behind CERTAIN types of crimes, is ridiculous.

:banghead:

My question was not referring to crimes such as murder. I agree with you that murder is murder.

I was referring to situations where a person can be arrested for what they say. We have laws which attempt to define limits to free speech. If a skinhead gets up in the town common and yells "Death to all Jews", he can be arrested for a hate crime. I was provoking a question which constantly pops up in issues of free speech. Whose the interpreter of what is acceptable and what is not. When lawmakers tried to regulate pornography, the main question was how do you define pronography. A congressman replied: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

[pookie]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Pookie...a political thread that starts as a political thread can't really transgress into a political thread. It already is one.

4 Words:
War and Peace Novel

2 more words:
Toni Smith

[pookie]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
4 words:
Stay off the thread

3 words:
Go talk football.


politicsplanet.com

[pookie]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
For you, this thread is like putting a drink in front of an alcoholic. You can't handle it. But you can't resist it.

Toni Smith is a brave and thoughtful girl. She has every right to make her statement. Those who don't like it are going to have buy some blinders and ear-muffs. This is just the start of the protesting.

If there's war, it's going to get a lot louder and a lot uglier -- in the U.S. and all over the world. One day I expect we'll be wishing that more protesters shared Ms. Smith's restraint.

Good morning, Vietnam.

Hey, I'm not an alcoholic!!

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

Originally posted by FallingAlice

4 words:
Stay off the thread

3 words:
Go talk football.
Toni Smith is a brave and thoughtful girl. She has every right to make her statement. Those who don't like it are going to have buy some blinders and ear-muffs. This is just the start of the protesting.

If there's war, it's going to get a lot louder and a lot uglier -- in the U.S. and all over the world. One day I expect we'll be wishing that more protesters shared Ms. Smith's restraint.

Good morning, Vietnam.

Mornin' to you Sunshine! :)

While we are on the subject of the right to protest, ear muffs, blinders and hypocrisy.... You are telling me that if I don't like POLITICS on this board then I can go somewhere else? What about my right to free speech? My right for peaceable, lawful protest? "Help I'm being OPPRESSED!"

I will blare my MR ROGERS in protest to the continued use of political argument on this board! (Expect IT to get louder and uglier. Why, come to think of it I know a site that has BARNEY songs...) I will NOT go in the other room. I want to be in THIS ROOM! :D

Originally posted by FallingAlice


Originally posted byNR
Mornin' to you Sunshine! :)

While we are on the subject of the right to protest, ear muffs, blinders and hypocrisy.... You are telling me that if I don't like POLITICS on this board then I can go somewhere else? What about my right to free speech? My right for peaceable, lawful protest? "Help I'm being OPPRESSED!"

I will blare my MR ROGERS in protest to the continued use of political argument on this board! (Expect IT to get louder and uglier. Why, come to think of it I know a site that has BARNEY songs...) I will NOT go in the other room. I want to be in THIS ROOM! :D

Ummm...I don't know. Yes? Is that a good answer?

Sorry, but why would I put a stop to politics threads when they clearly are (after the girlie-pic thread) the most widely read threads on the board.

As far as your Mr. Rogers flourish goes, I sort of liked it.. though its more than a little derivative. How very Brechtian of you.

But puhleeaasse. Let's not talk aesthetics. We'd be playing with fire.

Why Alice, If I didn't know better I would think you were trying to draw me into a a discussion of some sort. Surely that can't be your intent? Not aesthetics? It could get redundant....

You didn't think I went overboard with my protest do you? Perhaps I should have asked permission first? Mr. Rogers can be so caustic. I was afraid that it came across a bit heavy-handed.

(I do like the way he plays as a duet. Sounds like a harpsichord. I am going to hit the kill switch on one of the Rogers Brothers soon. I set it up to read from the disk cache but it isn't working. The two links are slowing my cable connection down so I can only imagine what it is doing for anyone with a dialup.)

What shall we discuss: back to the Westerns thread?

[Hawg73]

Originally posted by bideau
BTW, here's another bit of irony. I'm defending her right to protest but I haven't got a clear idea what her stand is. Can someone summarize her grievances?

Better late than never Bideau. I must have rocks in my head to even be posting on this thread after the lefty ass-whooping NR and Alice administered to me earlier on here.:whip: Rather than turn my phasers up from stun I am going to just let it ride and agree to disagree. It is just too damn much work to expore a topic as rich as this one by typing so I am done with it. No hard feelings. I might have been sloppy with some of my analogies but I will just let my statement stand as it is. Best that way. For the record my political stance is only slightly right of center and I love everybody but radical muslims and Raider fans.

I found some quotes from her and they are as follows:

"For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American
system have bothered me. As they are becoming progressively worse and it is
clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of
life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I
cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag," Smith said in a statement
released Thursday.



"I never meant this to be a public statement," said Smith, a 21-year-old
sociology major raised on Manhattan's Upper West Side. "I did it for my own
self-respect and conscience. My stance is not a
personal attack on Vietnam veterans or any war veterans. I know the flag
represents people who have died for this country, and I support them. But
the flag means different things to everyone.

"A lot of people blindly stand up and salute the flag, but I feel that
blindly facing the flag hurts more
people. There are a lot of inequities in this country, and these are
issues that needed to be acknowledged. The rich are getting richer, and
poor are getting poorer, and our priorities are elsewhere." In a written
statement last week, Smith referred to the potential for a war in Iraq as
part of the reason for her protest. On Tuesday, she did not mention war,
although it was clearly in the minds of the small band that
congregated on campus.

Asked if she thought her protest had given solace to the president of Iraq,
Smith said, "I doubt Saddam
Hussein is watching me right now."

"Any true patriot must acknowledge and respect my right to be different,"
Smith has said.

[pookie]

Originally posted by Hawg73
I found some quotes from her and they are as follows:

"For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American
system have bothered me. As they are becoming progressively worse and it is
clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of
life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I
cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag," Smith said in a statement
released Thursday.



"I never meant this to be a public statement," said Smith, a 21-year-old
sociology major raised on Manhattan's Upper West Side. "I did it for my own
self-respect and conscience. My stance is not a
personal attack on Vietnam veterans or any war veterans. I know the flag
represents people who have died for this country, and I support them. But
the flag means different things to everyone.

"A lot of people blindly stand up and salute the flag, but I feel that
blindly facing the flag hurts more
people. There are a lot of inequities in this country, and these are
issues that needed to be acknowledged. The rich are getting richer, and
poor are getting poorer, and our priorities are elsewhere." In a written
statement last week, Smith referred to the potential for a war in Iraq as
part of the reason for her protest. On Tuesday, she did not mention war,
although it was clearly in the minds of the small band that
congregated on campus.

Asked if she thought her protest had given solace to the president of Iraq,
Smith said, "I doubt Saddam
Hussein is watching me right now."

"Any true patriot must acknowledge and respect my right to be different,"
Smith has said.

She never meant it to be a public statement......hmmm. Basketball game, audience, camcorders. I don't know, we all must be stupid or something for not realizing what's making this little girl such a public spectacle. I'm thinking about heading to downtown Dallas to protest the protesters who have no idea what they're protesting.

Yep, a true patriot must acknowledge and respect her right to be different..... She ought to go hang out with fellow Patriot Chrissy Hines.

[Hawg73]

Originally posted by pookie
She never meant it to be a public statement......hmmm. Basketball game, audience, camcorders. I don't know, we all must be stupid or something for not realizing what's making this little girl such a public spectacle. I'm thinking about heading to downtown Dallas to protest the protesters who have no idea what they're protesting.

Yep, a true patriot must acknowledge and respect her right to be different..... She ought to go hang out with fellow Patriot Chrissy Hines.

What is she up to these days? Is she moving to France with Alec Baldwin? or maybe hanging with Barbra Streisand at White House parties (no not THAT kind of party) so she can corner Colin Powell and tell him how to do his job?

Whoops - I forgot I was done with this thread. drat.:eek:

I'm done now don't shoot me.

[pookie]

Attention NR... I will give you $2.00 if you modify your post and take the autoplay=yes out of Mr Rogers.....

Ugghhhh.

Originally posted by Hawg73
I must have rocks in my head to even be posting on this thread after the lefty ass-whooping NR and Alice administered to me earlier on here.:whip: Rather than turn my phasers up from stun I am going to just let it ride and agree to disagree. It is just too damn much work to expore a topic as rich as this one by typing so I am done with it. No hard feelings. I might have been sloppy with some of my analogies but I will just let my statement stand as it is. Best that way. For the record my political stance is only slightly right of center and I love everybody but radical muslims and Raider fans.

----

"I never meant this to be a public statement," said Smith, a 21-year-old sociology major raised on Manhattan's Upper West Side.

I know the flag represents people who have died for this country, and I support them. But the flag means different things to everyone.

"A lot of people blindly stand up and salute the flag, but I feel that
blindly facing the flag hurts more people. "

"Any true patriot must acknowledge and respect my right to be different," Smith has said.


"Lefty ass-whooping" :) We need some trolls so we can administer a more bi-partisan spanking.

Do you have any idea what it is like to be the sole liberal (loosely defined) voice -- together with Alice -- on this board? Add to that the perceptions of being a moderator and it is like having a target painted on your forehead.

I don't harbor any ill-will towards anyone. It was actually quite therapeutic. Life is too short. I think we can agree to disagree.....until the next flame war. Then we will be targeting your shields. :D

---

So I would guess that Toni Smith learned about life's harsh inequalities by growing up on the Upper West Side. When giving the choice always learn your lessons on the supply side of the economic equation.

Actually she makes some rather perceptive statements. A symbol such as the flag does not have only one meaning -- not to an inquisitive mind. She also does a bit of backpedaling although I can't say I wouldn't do the same if my picture was all over the national news. How many people salute the flag without ever questioning what the symbol means to them?

Originally posted by pookie
Attention NR... I will give you $2.00 if you modify your post and take the autoplay=yes out of Mr Rogers.....

Ugghhhh.

I was making a point about method. The power of the silent protest would have gone unnoticed here. Do you find the soothing sounds of Mr. Rogers a little irritating? :banghead: Good, my point was made. The squeaky wheel...greases the palm (and gets results.)

It is annoying me too. No charge.

[Peg]

Phew!... What a relief! Now I don't have to worry about writing an intelligent retort to your posts here... :)
I would MUCH rather go back to posting some jokes here, anyways! :)
So, Alice, tell me--are you planning on attending the gathering that I am tryin' to organize? Hope so!... :)
btw--just for the record, I recognize sarcasm when I see it... :)

[pookie]

Originally posted by NoRespect
I was making a point about method. The power of the silent protest would have gone unnoticed here. Do you find the soothing sounds of Mr. Rogers a little irritating? :banghead: Good, my point was made. The squeaky wheel...greases the palm (and gets results.)

It is annoying me too. No charge.

Point noted...

But the truth of the matter is that it wasn't annoying me, per se', but it was waking my children. The irony (I'm getting the hang of this) is that I was able to turn down the volume on my speakers and your Mr Rogers protest went away. Does this mean that if we ignore the likes of Toni Smith, Susan Sarandon, and worse by far, Chrissy Hines, that they will go away?

By the way, to the innocent child, without all the dreadful knowledge and no persuasion, Toni Smith is viewed as a traitor. I'm not stating this to stir the pot. I just thought it interesting that while watching a piece on SportsCenter about this w/ my two oldest they thought her actions were dispicable. they have a very strong sense of belonging to a great country. I guess it's because they had to witness those awful images of people from the mideast flying giant winged bombs into the core of America and killing fellow Americans. Now, Americans stand in protest to protect the rights of the very types of individuals that funded the slaughter. Kids don't forget these things.... Adults do. This is not political. This is what has happened here.

Originally posted by FallingAlice
I'm sorry, NR, but you're entirely alone now.

Well, I've changed my mind. About everything. Yup. Not only do I think that we ought to go into Iraq with guns blazing, but I'm joining a local militia group. I just applied for a hand-gun license and I am planning not to file taxes this year in protest over our unconstitutional government. I think we ought to fully fund street cleaning, but that's about it. Other than that, people should be able to fend for themselves.

And you call me an instigator. :Poke: You're the worst. Now you've gone and dragged out every conservative cliche in the book. (You forgot to mention Welfare being a safety net and not a hamock but otherwise I think you hit them all.)

Go. Begone. But don't try to sweet talk your way back here because they won't keep you in the lavish lifestyle of entitlements and big government to which you've become accustomed..... Because I will just say I told you so.

:D

[pookie]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
I'm sorry, NR, but you're entirely alone now. You know how they say, "Don't bother getting into a political discussion, because you can't change anyone's mind?"

Well, I've changed my mind. About everything. Yup. Not only do I think that we ought to go into Iraq with guns blazing, but I'm joining a local militia group. I just applied for a hand-gun license and I am planning not to file taxes this year in protest over our unconstitutional government. I think we ought to fully fund street cleaning, but that's about it. Other than that, people should be able to fend for themselves.

Thanks, guys!! I know I never would've seen the light if it hadn't been for the support and encouragement of PatsPlanet members.

:thumb:

Can you see me ignoring you ma'am?? See, I'm being very good.

So, when is the ceremony anyway? Should I bring gifts or are checks ok? Made out to FallingRespect I presume?

Damn I'm getting good at this sarcasm sh!t.... You guys have taught me well, I must say. You may be creating a monster. That sounds problematic.

Originally posted by pookie
So, when is the ceremony anyway? Should I bring gifts or are checks ok? Made out to FallingRespect I presume?

Damn I'm getting good at this sarcasm sh!t.... You guys have taught me well, I must say. You may be creating a monster. That sounds problematic.

:LOL: Actually make them out to NoAlice.


FallingRespect. Are you suggesting that we are becoming too much alike or that I am actually in debt with respect to respect. My new avatar was really intended as the sincerest form of flattery. We are trying to maintain a "consistent" level of service here at the Planet. Not good necessarily; it has been my experience that most people will settle for merely predictable. The goal one day is that all moderators on the board will be indistinguishable automatons who never need to eat or sleep, are well-versed in a classic liberal arts education, can dispense information and pass judgement with an even left hand while simultaneously assembling a Chrysler.

[dropKickMurphy]

Originally posted by NoRespect
[BThe goal one day is that all moderators on the board will be indistinguishable automatons who never need to eat or sleep, are well-versed in a classic liberal arts education, can dispense information and pass judgement with an even left hand while simultaneously assembling a Chrysler. [/B]

In other words, all that's left is for you and Alice to complete your Chrysler Mechanics correspondence course.:thumb:

Originally posted by dropKickMurphy
In other words, all that's left is for you and Alice to complete your Chrysler Mechanics correspondence course.:thumb:


Already did. See if you can guess which one is Alice.

[pookie]

Originally posted by NoRespect
Already did. See if you can guess which one is Alice.

I was going to guess the one third from the rear.... But I'm calling B.S. on you NR!!! Those are Chevy's in the background, not Mopars!! Ah-ha... Busted!

:D :D

Originally posted by pookie
I was going to guess the one third from the rear.... But I'm calling B.S. on you NR!!! Those are Chevy's in the background, not Mopars!! Ah-ha... Busted!:D :D

Damn, I didn't think anyone would notice. Alright, you caught me. Alice and I will be assembling Chevys. Third from the rear -- good guess.

Originally posted by FallingAlice
And is it just me, or does the third one from the right look like the human incarnation of Sideshow Bob?

Possibly, either that or you are trying to distract us from the fact that it is obviously you in that photo.

Here is a related question: Why is it that Sideshow Mel never took off?

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Anyone know the leader to whom this quote is ascribed?

Freak? I would think you might know.



"The military-industrial complex": the radical interdependence of "a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions" and "an immense military establishment" dangerous both to democracy at home and the prospect of world peace. "The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every state house, every office of the federal government… we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."




Interesting question, some would even say "provocative". Ironic even, given the source...)

However, BACK to Sideshow Mel. Originally it was posed as a rhetorical question but one that demands our attention.


Think of this a two-part discussion:

1. The "Military-Industrial Complex" vis-à-vis Current US Foreign Policy. Who said it and why is it relevant today?

2. Sideshow Mel -- Untapped potential or just another 'toon?

[dropKickMurphy]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
"The military-industrial complex": the radical interdependence of "a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions" and "an immense military establishment" dangerous both to democracy at home and the prospect of world peace. "The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every state house, every office of the federal government… we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

<br />
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Yes, thank you dKM for those enlightened words. :) Not to mention the choice of looped audio. Hiding the controls was a nice touch as well.

However, I am a little bit "insulted" by that gesture and wonder if choosing to defile the Simpsons by resorting to use of South Park sound bytes was the only way to voice your objection. Couldn't you just stay out of the thread? :D

Tree-hugging-hippie-crap?



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This will be especially ironic when you realize who authored that speech (perhaps you already do….)

Originally posted by FallingAlice
Anyway...I assume that DropKick knows perfectly well that it was the venerable Dwight Eisenhower who gave the American People those words --- his final words upon leaving office.

I like Ike! :thumb:


I like him too. What I wouldn't give to have him in the White House right now instead of W.

That sure was some five-star tree-hugging-crap that he said wasn't it? :D

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/images/de34.gif

I had forgotten about Ike's Atoms For Peace (see bio.) (http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/de34.html) program. How times have changed. Giving away uranium for "peaceful" purposes. Good clean-burning, uranium! (Inhales deeply...) Those were the days. I love the peaceful smell of uranium in the morning. (I am actually in favor of nuclear energy compared to some of the alternatives. Tree-huggers like Ike and I can surprise you sometimes. )




(btw: DKM, I didn't delete the audio, just prevented it from looping. It has the annoying side-effect of crashing my computer for some reason. Mr. Rogers did too. I should have left a note in the post. )

[Hawg73]

Originally posted by FallingAlice
I must admit, I don't know the answer to the Sideshow Mel question. But, in my reading to prepare me for life as a republican, I came across this.

Anyone know the leader to whom this quote is ascribed?

Freak? I would think you might know.


"The military-industrial complex": the radical interdependence of "a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions" and "an immense military establishment" dangerous both to democracy at home and the prospect of world peace. "The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every state house, every office of the federal government… we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence , whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist ."


Alice, In my opinion you cherry-picked his speech a bit. Reading those words alone would give some the impression that the military-industrial complex is bad and the author (Dewey) is utterly against it. After reading the speech (thank you for the homework assignment it was excellent) I came away with an opinion that he was stating his opinion that although dangerous, it was absolutely necessary to our survival as a country. Of course containing power so vast is a sticky wicket and he beautifully stated both the necessity and the difficulties inherent with managing such a power.

I thought this quote was also telling:

"A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction."

Just thought I'd present another take on the subject. ;)

For those that would like to read the entire speech and pick out thier own slant on things:

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html