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Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 04:37 PM

So my doorbell just rang and my dog Shadow starts barking like a mofo (good girl). I go open it and there they are with their white shirts, backpacks, and name tags. I barely opened the door halfway and recognize em for what they are and blurt out "Mormons, forget it, see ya" and start closing the door when one of em asks "do you know anyone in the neighborhood who can use an uplifting message maybe?" This hits me with the kind of laughter that shoots soda out your nose. Somehow I managed to get out "no" as I closed the door but I'm sure that wont stop em.

Was that mean?

Number Cruncher

02-13-2006, 04:40 PM

No, they're lucky ya didn't shot em.....

Moebius

02-13-2006, 04:42 PM

Speaking as a (supposed to be) Mormon, nah, they're used to it.

TrueBeliever

02-13-2006, 04:42 PM

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Moebius

02-13-2006, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by TrueBeliever
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses?

No, in my experience the difference there is that JWs keep coming back or keep knocking. Mormon's are supposed to take no for an answer. If they don't they're being naughty and shall be smitten like the scumbags they are.

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by TrueBeliever
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Nope you'd know Mormons if you seen em.

Here's a terrible story that ensures me a nice place in Hell. When I was 19 I didn't usually have access to a car and generally had to walk to the Liquor Store (the one with the people I had duped into thinking I was 23). A couple of (pretty sure they were Hatian) Jehovas witnesses canvassed the neighborhood one day and I feigned interest (probably cause I was drunk and acting stupid at the time.) The next week or so they showed up and I started "juicing them for rides" whenever they came around. I always talked to em for about 10 minutes and then said hey I need to go somewhere and had em drop me off at the T station which was right next to the Liquor Store.

After a while (I got a car) I just stopped answering the door.

See you all in Hell! :D

dchester

02-13-2006, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
Was that mean? Yes. The very least you could have done would have been to give them the name and address of someone you don't like.

BTW, were any of them hot babes? I've been trying to talk my wife into converting to Mormon for years. Thus far, my argument of 50% less house work hasn't been very persuasive.
________
600 (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_600)

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by dchester
Yes. The very least you could have done would have been to give them the name and address of someone you don't like.

BTW, were any of them hot babes? I've been trying to talk my wife into converting to Mormon for years. Thus far, my argument of 50% less house work hasn't been very persuasive.

Nah two guys as usual. I think one time back in Boston I must have talked to a couple of em that came to my house because a few days later they sent the chix in. Let me tell you, these girls will want to make you convert. If you haven't noticed, the male mormons who canvas are generally young (30 and under) attractive white guys. Never once have I seen an old, fat, hispanic, or black mormon come pimp their shit at my door. Well you get the picture, the chix were beautiful.

I pissed em off though by asking them if they actually believed they would be Gods one day. They never came back. :(

Claremonster

02-13-2006, 05:05 PM

Nah... It wasn't mean. When I was a teenager, I Had 'em come around one day, and I answer the door - black hair down almost to my waist, Black Sabbath t-shirt on, etc... invited them in, and I offered them lemonade, and some ummmm brownies I had... special brownies. VERY special brownies that I made since the folks were outta town for a few days.

Those two damn near ate the entire plate of em. After a while, they seemed to forget why they were there, and they ended up leaving...

They never did come back. Odd.

sonsofkraftybob

02-13-2006, 05:05 PM

Mormons in Vegas huh? That's like Albino's at the beach. Very rare.

TrueBeliever

02-13-2006, 05:06 PM

I asked because I have never heard of Mormons going door-to-door like that. Course where I live there are no Mormons that I know of, either.

Here's one sure way to get under their skin - the next time they come to the door, say, "Oh cool, I'll join if that means I can be married to five broads at once!"

mgoblue101415

02-13-2006, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by dchester
I've been trying to talk my wife into converting to Mormon for years.

I considered converting to Mormonism ( is that how it's referred to? ) about 8 or 9 years ago.

But then Steve Young went and got married so there was no point to consider it anymore. :(

Claremonster

02-13-2006, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by TrueBeliever
I asked because I have never heard of Mormons going door-to-door like that. Course where I live there are no Mormons that I know of, either.

Here's one sure way to get under their skin - the next time they come to the door, say, "Oh cool, I'll join if that means I can be married to five broads at once!"

We had both Mormons AND JWs come around. It was always JWs for the longest time, then we had the Mormons come once. I hadn't heard of it either. The only thing I knew about Mormons is that they had/have incredible genealogy resources. That seems to be their one redeeming quality. (My wife's family has some mormons in it, and they are not very nice people, so I've never gotten to know any well enough to say anything else :) )

TrueBeliever

02-13-2006, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Claremonster
The only thing I knew about Mormons is that they had/have incredible genealogy resources. That seems to be their one redeeming quality.

Yeah, it's important to know which Osmond you descended from. :D

Claremonster

02-13-2006, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by TrueBeliever
Yeah, it's important to know which Osmond you descended from. :D

:D :D Hahahahahaha

OSUBuckeye

02-13-2006, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
So my doorbell just rang and my dog Shadow starts barking like a mofo (good girl). I go open it and there they are with their white shirts, backpacks, and name tags. I barely opened the door halfway and recognize em for what they are and blurt out "Mormons, forget it, see ya" and start closing the door when one of em asks "do you know anyone in the neighborhood who can use an uplifting message maybe?" This hits me with the kind of laughter that shoots soda out your nose. Somehow I managed to get out "no" as I closed the door but I'm sure that wont stop em.

Was that mean?

I think it was mean because you failed to offer them a bong hit. Come on A9 where is your hospitality?

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by OSUBuckeye
I think it was mean because you failed to offer them a bong hit. Come on A9 where is your hospitality?

Sadly I'm out of weed ATM. Suppose I coulda offered em a beer though. :D

Mark_Henderson

02-13-2006, 06:45 PM

I've never had a Mormon come to my door, but I have driven the Joehova's Witnesses away twice by grilling them with questions about what I consider to be inconsistencies in the Bible. I consider it a moral victory if they leave in under five minutes of their own accord.

Costanza

02-13-2006, 06:47 PM

Ok, guys, I hope you don't hate me now, but I am a Mormon. We prefer LDS because Mormon was first used in a derogatory way that just stuck.

I know by the things I post here I am not acting very Christlike and I have contemplated quitting here because this is my one outlet to bad things.

We aren't crazy, I promise. And the exact opposite of Jehovah's Witnesses, thankyouverymuch.

I go every Sunday. I am hold titles in the Church. I think anyone that has a real belief in Christ should at least check it out, I think you'd be surprised. And they understand no means no, so if you tell them to go away, they will. We are big believers in free agency.

I recently converted, this month is one year, so I still have problems with things from my past and trying to get over things from before. I stopped doing drugs and drinkiing when I became a mom, so that part was easy, but it is definitley a lifestyle that you have to be ready for. Because it is just, a way of life and not just a religion. I still have a problem with cussing and bs-ing and things of that sort.

There are a lot of misconceptions about it. I listened to the Missionaries just to amuse my MIL. But to my surprise, what they teach is a lot of what I already beleived in. It just felt right.

It is the Church Of Jesus Christ, he is our Savior and we worship him and God.

I understand ya'll think we all are crazy and will say whatever you want, I know, I was the same exact way.

So, not trying to convert everyone or anything, just a subject near and dear to my heart.

Ask all the questions if you want.

And we don't think people who aren't like us are bad.

TrueBeliever

02-13-2006, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
We aren't crazy, I promise. And the exact opposite of Jehovah's Witnesses, thankyouverymuch.

I hope you don't think that I was implying that LDS and JWs are interchangeable. I asked if Alkie was thinking of JWs because I had never heard of people of your faith going door-to-door like that and thought perhaps he had confused the two.

From what I know about JWs, they don't even believe in Christ. I believe their religion is more about the God of the Old Testament.

If I ever do start attending a church regularly again, it will be the same denomination I last attended regularly - United Church of Christ. And no, not just because they are a relatively "liberal" denomination.

Rather, what I like about UCC is that they make worshipping seem like something you can be happy about. It's like, "Hey, you know what? God loves us, and it's cool!" Not like the Lutheran church I was raised in, where the attitude was more like, "You better believe in God and Jesus and PRAY that He is willing to accept your worthless butt!"

And no offense about the "marrying 5 women" remark. I know that actual LDS members do not practice polygamy, and I'm sure y'all don't appreciate the stereotype.

TommyD420

02-13-2006, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
Ok, guys, I hope you don't hate me now, but I am a Mormon. We prefer LDS because Mormon was first used in a derogatory way that just stuck.

I know by the things I post here I am not acting very Christlike and I have contemplated quitting here because this is my one outlet to bad things.

We aren't crazy, I promise. And the exact opposite of Jehovah's Witnesses, thankyouverymuch.

I go every Sunday. I am hold titles in the Church. I think anyone that has a real belief in Christ should at least check it out, I think you'd be surprised. And they understand no means no, so if you tell them to go away, they will. We are big believers in free agency.

I recently converted, this month is one year, so I still have problems with things from my past and trying to get over things from before. I stopped doing drugs and drinkiing when I became a mom, so that part was easy, but it is definitley a lifestyle that you have to be ready for. Because it is just, a way of life and not just a religion. I still have a problem with cussing and bs-ing and things of that sort.

There are a lot of misconceptions about it. I listened to the Missionaries just to amuse my MIL. But to my surprise, what they teach is a lot of what I already beleived in. It just felt right.

It is the Church Of Jesus Christ, he is our Savior and we worship him and God.

I understand ya'll think we all are crazy and will say whatever you want, I know, I was the same exact way.

So, not trying to convert everyone or anything, just a subject near and dear to my heart.

Ask all the questions if you want.

And we don't think people who aren't like us are bad.

In my experience, Mormons are about 5x as likely to knock on your door than JWs are.

That said...Mormons and JWs are just doing what they have to do, as per their religion. I know it gets annoying sometimes, especially if you're busy around the house or whatever; but as for me, in either case...I tell them I'm a catholic and i've accepted JC as my Personal Christ and Savior, and I'm not really interested in converting, and they're usually cool with that....Sometimes the JWs will say Catholics aren't the "chosen people", and I usually one-line that off, s(omething like "Well the Pope thinks so...Who am i to argue with the Pope?). But Mormons in my experience actually seem pretty happy with my answer, and if it's cold out I'll give them some coffee to go or something.

To me, it's a minor inconvenience.., and they're just doing what they believe in; doesn't make them any better or worse than me, and I actually kind of respect them for having that kind of committment.

Just me though...Your results may vary.

:Pat:

Mark_Henderson

02-13-2006, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by TrueBeliever
And no offense about the "marrying 5 women" remark. I know that actual LDS members do not practice polygamy, and I'm sure y'all don't appreciate the stereotype.

Bummer. From what Alkie said about the hot girls coming to his door, I was thinking that maybe I could give them my soul for some kind of package deal.

TrueBeliever

02-13-2006, 07:17 PM

You could always seek out one of the splinter sects where it is still allowed.

Costanza

02-13-2006, 07:18 PM

It's all good, no offense taken. I am used to hearing harsh stuff. Most people are cool about it though.

We take the "Christ loves us and that is cool" approach too. Good stuff.

All in all, anyone that loves JC is ok with me. And even those who don't, not everyone is bad who doesn't believe.

Costanza

02-13-2006, 07:21 PM

I would say a lot of the people in the Church are attractive, because we take care of our bodies.

And there are some crazies in Utah that try to splinter off and make their own version so they can still practice polygamy. We are very against them.

Hey man, if you want 5 hot chicks at the same time and don't care about your soul, I am sure there are a lot of way to fulfill that fantasy.

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 07:22 PM

Moebius

02-13-2006, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
Ok, guys, I hope you don't hate me now, but I am a Mormon. We prefer LDS because Mormon was first used in a derogatory way that just stuck.

I know by the things I post here I am not acting very Christlike and I have contemplated quitting here because this is my one outlet to bad things.

We aren't crazy, I promise. And the exact opposite of Jehovah's Witnesses, thankyouverymuch.

C'mon, admit it. We're crazy. :D Everyone knows it.

When I was in high school, my friends and I all took a couple of months to go to each others' churches to learn about them. We had a First Christian (not sure what that really denomination derives from), a Baptist, a Catholic, an Episcopalian, and the Mormon me. Mostly we learned two things. Most religions are basically alike, and that alot of folks hate Mormons.

The week we went to the Baptist friends church, the pastor (or minister, whichever he's called) chose that day to give an anti-Mormon sermon. It was rather funny for all of us to listen to him. Me because I know my own religion and my friends because they knew my family. He was basically quoting stuff from the more popular anti-Mormon books and literature. Stuff like we have to take showers with one foot outside touching garments, which was my favorite. We spent most of the time trying to control our giggling.

Afterwards, the Pastor came up to us to chide my member friend. He said that he wasn't sure all the guy's statements were accurate. He assured us that he knew what he was talking about and asked why we'd question that. My friend pointed to me and told him I was Mormon. He then proceeded to try and prove his statements until I started listing some of the books he'd used to quote from. After that he got flustered and stalked off.

My friend never went back (not sure about his parents). Though he didn't convert to LDS or anything, he told me there's no way he could respect someone who's supposed to be religious using his position to spread lies and ill will.

Among my friends, we decided every religion is crazy looking unless you believe in it.

mgoblue101415

02-13-2006, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by TommyD420
Sometimes the JWs will say Catholics aren't the "chosen people", and I usually one-line that off, s(omething like "Well the Pope thinks so...Who am i to argue with the Pope?).

Next time they tell you that just point out the fact that the original disciples chose those to succeed them, and those then chose those would would succeed them and so and so on through the ages... Those "successors" are now the Holy Order of the Catholic Church.

So technically... You can't get much closer to being the "chosen people". ;)

The one thing I never understood about religions such as LDS and Baptists is the utter ban on drinking alcohol.

The Bible does not say that it is wrong to drink. Hell, through out the Bible people are drinking and being merry.

It's the act of overindulging that the Bible says is wrong. And that pertains to everything from drinking to eating to sleeping to watching TV. It falls under gluttony.

But the Bible, never condemns drinking.

I've just always wondered why there are religions out there that have. :shrug:

Moebius

02-13-2006, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
Is the Mormon belief that after you die you'll be the God of your own world?

No, but that's a common mis-conception I've heard throughout my life.

TommyD420

02-13-2006, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by mgoblue101415
Next time they tell you that just point out the fact that the original disciples chose those to succeed them, and those then chose those would would succeed them and so and so on through the ages... Those "successors" are now the Holy Order of the Catholic Church.

So technically... You can't get much closer to being the "chosen people". ;)

The one thing I never understood about religions such as LDS and Baptists is the utter ban on drinking alcohol.

The Bible does not say that it is wrong to drink. Hell, through out the Bible people are drinking and being merry.

It's the act of overindulging that the Bible says is wrong. And that pertains to everything from drinking to eating to sleeping to watching TV. It falls under gluttony.

But the Bible, never condemns drinking.

I've just always wondered why there are religions out there that have. :shrug:

Assembly of God is like that too. I've awlays wondered that myself. JC turned water into wine after all....BAD JC...BAD :D:D

:Pat:

Moebius

02-13-2006, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by mgoblue101415
The one thing I never understood about religions such as LDS and Baptists is the utter ban on drinking alcohol.

The Bible does not say that it is wrong to drink. Hell, through out the Bible people are drinking and being merry.

It's the act of overindulging that the Bible says is wrong. And that pertains to everything from drinking to eating to sleeping to watching TV. It falls under gluttony.

But the Bible, never condemns drinking.

I've just always wondered why there are religions out there that have. :shrug:

The short answer is the whole body is a temple line of thinking. Alcohol is bad (mmmkay..). Even in moderation it kills brain cells, thus religions that follow that practice are against it. Luckily, I didn't have to worry too much. I can't stand the taste of alcohol. Beer, wine, liqour, pretty much all taste terrible to me.

As for wine references in the bible and such, this was a time when potable water wasn't always readily available.

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by Moebius
No, but that's a common mis-conception I've heard throughout my life.

So if you don't mind, what is the belief? I've heard that from a few people who claimed they got it straight out of some Mormons mouth.

And how come all of you guys are white? Do either you or Jheavner have any asians/blacks/hispanics in your congregations?

Moebius

02-13-2006, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
So if you don't mind, what is the belief? I've heard that from a few people who claimed they got it straight out of some Mormons mouth.

And how come all of you guys are white? Do either you or Jheavner have any asians/blacks/hispanics in your congregations?

For the record, I've been inactive for about a year. At first, because I was working a second job on Sundays, and now mostly out of laziness.

To try and be brief, we believe in heaven, to the effect of three kingdoms. The highest for those who lived a pure, Christ-like life, where one can sit by the side of God (usually where the misconception derives from). The second for those not quite so good, and the third for the naughty folks (akin to hell).

It's more complex than that, but that's the basic idea.

As for the cultural diversity part, I've seen just about every ethnicity in our church. Up here, there's a rather high haitian congregation actually, but also black, asian, even indian (as in East).

Costanza

02-13-2006, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
DEAD TO ME!

j/k

Did your man convert you? Was he a Mormon when you met? Or are you converting him? Who the hell did convert you?

Is the Mormon belief that after you die you'll be the God of your own world?

Whoa dude, let me breathe.

My man was raised a Mormon, but that didn't stop him from turning into the biggest Meth dealer in the town, among other things. Although he still new it was right, he wanted to have fun. He got out of all that stuff and was pretty good when we met. I mean, he didn't deal anymore. And by dealing I mean hooking his friends up, not going to kids at school or anything. Remember, this was Mariposa where you knew everyone. I knew everyone in the entire high school, about 500 people. Needless to say, the parties were the bomb.

I have always been a fan of JC, but not Mormon. I used to say terrible things about "them". He brought it up, but I shut him down. His Mom would say stuff, but then I would shut her up, too. (She wasn't a very good one, either.) It was when I let the Missionaries in that I started to beleive. It was just me home, so when I told my husband he was excited. We started to go to the Church and I was Baptized. That was such an amazing feeling.

Anyway, my old man still smoked (14 years, half of his life). Although I did everything else, I always hated smoking, so I always begged him to quit. He never could. He tried for the whole 4 years we were together and never could. And then we started going to the LDS church, where you know, they don't dig that kind of thing. So he quit. No problems. No withdrawls. Acted like he never had a problem to begin with. Did I mention he chewed everyday, too? That was more proof to me, that a man who smoked half of his life, who could quit everything else with no problem, could stop doing this that he had such a problem with. He had some good help (JC).

I have no clue where you are getting this "be the God of your Own World" stuff. We die and go to the Spirit World, Heaven. There are different layers for the different kinds of souls. All this stuff is in the Bible. All the questionable stuff I had about this Church, was proven to me in MY Bible the KJV. Not some funny version they have like the JW do. The showed me the answers from something I knew already, not the Book of Mormon (I thought that was the Devil's tool).

I guess you could say the Missionaries converted me.

Costanza

02-13-2006, 07:43 PM

And we all get another chance to accept/do better the Gospel once we reach the Kingdom.

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner

I have no clue where you are getting this "be the God of your Own World" stuff. We die and go to the Spirit World, Heaven. There are different layers for the different kinds of souls. All this stuff is in the Bible. All the questionable stuff I had about this Church, was proven to me in MY Bible the KJV. Not some funny version they have like the JW do. The showed me the answers from something I knew already, not the Book of Mormon (I thought that was the Devil's tool).

Weird. I asked the two hot chix who came to my door about that some years ago in Boston and they kinda dodged the question and never came back after that. I suppose they coulda realized they were wasting their time with me though.

Moebius

02-13-2006, 07:52 PM

If anyone wants to know more, just give me your address. I'll be happy to send someone around. :D

Back on the knocking on doors topic, yes, they still do that. It seems these days though that it's not quite as common as it once was. I run across missionaries in public places more than see them in neighborhoods.

I always took a little pride in some folklore research my sister in law did when she was in college. She contacted most of the major religions requesting materials about their beliefs. From LDS of course she got a Book of Mormon and a Bible. Others sent Bibles, or books about them, pamphlets, whatever they used. JWs came a'knocking a couple days later, and more times afterwards. Others called a few times or sent people by. The Mormons called, asked if she'd received the materials, then asked if she would like someone to stop by to discuss them. She said no, and that was it. No knocks, no calls, they just left her a contact number and said call if she ever had questions or wanted to discuss. She told me she was pretty impressed with the fact that they didn't push.

Moebius

02-13-2006, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
Weird. I asked the two hot chix who came to my door about that some years ago in Boston and they kinda dodged the question and never came back after that. I suppose they coulda realized they were wasting their time with me though.

They're kind of trained to deal with abuse and door slamming, and not to push it with those who don't want to listen.

Dan Pires

02-13-2006, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
So my doorbell just rang and my dog Shadow starts barking like a mofo (good girl). I go open it and there they are with their white shirts, backpacks, and name tags. I barely opened the door halfway and recognize em for what they are and blurt out "Mormons, forget it, see ya" and start closing the door when one of em asks "do you know anyone in the neighborhood who can use an uplifting message maybe?" This hits me with the kind of laughter that shoots soda out your nose. Somehow I managed to get out "no" as I closed the door but I'm sure that wont stop em.

Was that mean?

Ya' know, this reminds me of an old joke...

What's the difference between a Mormon and a Yugo?

You can't slam the door on a Yugo, bud.

P.S. I can't tell you how many times I've just simply said to people, with no accent or emphasized tone, "I don't speak English" and either walked away or shut the door in their face.

http://justlooking.recursion.org/yugo-gv.jpg

Moebius

02-13-2006, 07:59 PM

Oh, and for the record, I think Orgazmo is one of the funniest friggin movies ever made, despite ragging on Mormon's pretty bad. If you've never seen it, give it a shot.

Costanza

02-13-2006, 08:00 PM

I didn't get the alcohol part, either. And then I paid attention.

Your body is your temple (that is in the Bible) for the Holy Ghost, treat it right, basically. And wine back in the day wasn't very hardcore.

And there are a lot of cultures in my Church. We have to have a whole 'nother meeting time for the Hmongs.

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9

And how come all of you guys are white? Do either you or Jheavner have any asians/blacks/hispanics in your congregations?

I'm still wondering about this question.

I'm not accusing mormons of being racist or anything I'm generally curious. Lets say over my lifetime 25 Mormons have come to my door at various points. They were all white and under 30. :shrug:

Moebius

02-13-2006, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
I'm still wondering about this question.

I'm not accusing mormons of being racist or anything I'm generally curious. Lets say over my lifetime 25 Mormons have come to my door at various points. They were all white and under 30. :shrug:

My ward up here had 2 black Missionaries when I was active, and like I said a rather large Haitian contingent (most of which would of course be black). Back home down South, we had a pretty good mix of black and white, with a few Asians and an Indian couple, I believe they converted from Muslim, though I'm not positive on that.

Dan Pires

02-13-2006, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
They were all white and under 30. :shrug:

Not only are they all white, they're all very pale and the carrying the wrong chromosones.

Costanza

02-13-2006, 08:06 PM

I know a Black woman got up for a talk during the Sacrament service and talked about how it wasn't acceptable by some of her family for her to be LDS.

I think because different cultures usually have their own thing going on. A lot of Blacks are Baptist, and then there is Bhuddism and Islam and Hindu. Most white people can roam around without gettiing any flack.

Richard Gere and Goldie Hawn are Bhuddist.

Gladys Knight is a Mormon.

There sure don't fit into the "mold" viewed from the outside.

Moebius

02-13-2006, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Dan Pires
Not only are they all white, they're all very pale and the carrying the wrong chromosones.

LOL. Ok guys, rule number 1. Don't fall for a female missionary. First, look at the obvious, she's religious and will be so for at least a couple more years. Second, she lives many miles away from where you are and will be going back home eventually. Third she's not gonna want to marry a heathen like most of us here are. >)

Costanza

02-13-2006, 08:07 PM

Hey, I have an Italian tan and the perfect 23 pair of Chromosomes.:p

Moebius

02-13-2006, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
Hey, I have an Italian tan and the perfect 23 pair of Chromosomes.:p

In that case, will you be my second wife?

(ok, I just could resist)

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Dan Pires
Not only are they all white, they're all very pale and the carrying the wrong chromosones.

And they all wear those white collared shirts! Aint there no blue or grey in Mormon land? :D

Thanks Moeb, I was wondering. Seemed like the Hitler Youth to me sometimes. :p

What's up with the backpacks? ;)

TommyD420

02-13-2006, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Moebius
In that case, will you be my second wife?

(ok, I just could resist)

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

ROFL ROFL ROFL

:thumb:

:Pat:

Moebius

02-13-2006, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
And they all where those white collared shirts! Aint there no blue or grey in Mormon land? :D

Thanks Moeb, I was wondering. Seemed like the Hitler Youth to me sometimes. :p

What's up with the backpacks? ;)

These guys live a pretty simple and spartan life for a couple years. To be honest, it's something I knew pretty early I'd never be able to do, especially dealing with the rejection issues.

The clothes are just the simple living part (not sure if there are specific rules). The backpacks are just a matter of convenience. They're carrying their own scriptures, plus copies to hand out (not many mind you) and other materials. You need some way to haul all that stuff around, and most of them will be on foot or bicycle for a good portion of the day.

Their day is pretty much get up, study, tracting (the time they go out a'preachin), study, go to bed. Church members usually help out with food and such (inviting the missionaires for dinner for example).

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Moebius
These guys live a pretty simple and spartan life for a couple years. To be honest, it's something I knew pretty early I'd never be able to do, especially dealing with the rejection issues.

The clothes are just the simple living part (not sure if there are specific rules). The backpacks are just a matter of convenience. They're carrying their own scriptures, plus copies to hand out (not many mind you) and other materials. You need some way to haul all that stuff around, and most of them will be on foot or bicycle for a good portion of the day.

Their day is pretty much get up, study, tracting (the time they go out a'preachin), study, go to bed. Church members usually help out with food and such (inviting the missionaires for dinner for example).

Are they training to be uhh... preists/reverands/whatever then?

Dan Pires

02-13-2006, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
What's up with the backpacks? ;)

Okay, you said it. What is up with the WalMart $7.99 backpacks?

I do have to say that they are cool when you slam the door in their faces. It's not like they whip out a can of shaving cream and fling wet dog crap on your screen door after you do it.

Moebius

02-13-2006, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
Are they training to be uhh... preists/reverands/whatever then?

Nope, just spreading the word. My brother-in-law was a missionary (met my sister right after he got home), and is now working in the truck tire industry.

On that note, in the case of LDS, Bishops (our version of whatever :) ) are not paid, usually married, have jobs outside of the church, don't go to special schools or anything, and are pretty much normal folk.

Moebius

02-13-2006, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Dan Pires
Okay, you said it. What is up with the WalMart $7.99 backpacks?

I do have to say that they are cool when you slam the door in their faces. It's not like they whip out a can of shaving cream and fling wet dog crap on your screen door after you do it.

Missionaries pay their way in alot of respects. Obviously the church provides some of the funding, and housing and such, but personals and all that.... You get the idea. You look for cost cutting wherever you can, so I'd imagine Walmart is a pretty good source for that.

TrueBeliever

02-13-2006, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
Hey man, if you want 5 hot chicks at the same time and don't care about your soul, I am sure there are a lot of way to fulfill that fantasy.

Not only that, but (if the TV news program reports are to be believed) they are often physically and sexually abusive and essentially hold members of their family captive. Sounds more like David Koresh than Brigham Young.

What we were told was wrong with LDS in the church and school I was raised in was that their teachings derive from the Book of Mormon, which Lutherans (and most other denominations) do not recognize as being from God.

But in recent years I have heard scholars talk about how there have been many different versions of the Bible over the years, and how other gospels and books were held out from the Bible altogether due to what religious officials centuries ago felt should and should not be included. So who are we to say what is part of the Bible and what is not?

Costanza

02-13-2006, 08:38 PM

They aren't training for anything. It more like they are concentrating on their task at hand.

They aren't allowed to watch TV or anything like that. In their spare time, they read the scriptures.

Eliminating anything not needed to promote God's plan.

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner

They aren't allowed to watch TV or anything like that. In their spare time, they read the scriptures.

Eliminating anything not needed to promote God's plan.

"allowed" to watch TV? Or what? They'll burn in the hellfires of damnation for eternity? ;)

This is the part where the thread ends up in the political forum I guess. :D

Moebius

02-13-2006, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by TrueBeliever
What we were told was wrong with LDS in the church and school I was raised in was that their teachings derive from the Book of Mormon, which Lutherans (and most other denominations) do not recognize as being from God.

Teachings derive from the Old and New Testament as well. If you look at the cover of a Book of Mormon, it says "Another Testament of Christ". In effect, it covers the Americas during the time of Christ. For those who went to Sunday School or read the Bible, you most likely came across the phrase "Other sheep I have which are not of this fold". That's what it covers.

Costanza

02-13-2006, 08:44 PM

I have heard that the Jw are the abused ones. And maybe the Crazy Momon sects in Utah that think they are better than any other beings.

We talk about the different interpretations of the Bible in our Church. It's how it is interpreted is what your denomination is.

The book of Mormon is another Testimony of Jesus Christ. He is all powerful and mighty, so why was he only in the Middle East in Biblical times?

All it is is his visits and influences in another part of the World. In the Americas. It reads pretty much just like the Bible. All about Jesus Christ and God.

Moebius

02-13-2006, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
"allowed" to watch TV? Or what? They'll burn in the hellfires of damnation for eternity? ;)

This is the part where the thread ends up in the political forum I guess. :D

Just avoiding distractions. This day and age, if you think about it, it kinda makes sense. TV ain't exactly good wholesome material these days.

Costanza

02-13-2006, 08:45 PM

Costanza

02-13-2006, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Moebius
"Other sheep I have which are not of this fold". That's what it covers.

That made a lot of sense to me as I started my journey to convert.

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Moebius
For those who went to Sunday School or read the Bible, you most likely came across the phrase "Other sheep I have which are not of this fold". That's what it covers.

I came across a few other phrases in Sunday School....

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Sorry Had to do it. :D

Ah well, thanks for informing me a bit about the Mormon religion. I'll try and be nicer to em if they ever come to my house again. ;)

TrueBeliever

02-13-2006, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Moebius
Just avoiding distractions. This day and age, if you think about it, it kinda makes sense. TV ain't exactly good wholesome material these days.

I second that. The amount of violence disturbs me. Last fall, in particular, there was an ad for a show (I think it was NCIS) that showed a woman being shot in the head and blood pooling around her. And I remember thinking, if I find this unsettling, how does a kid feel seeing this?

Not that it was much better in my day. Some of my earliest memories are seeing people get murdered on shows like Vega$ and Charlie's Angels.

But anyway, I would just like to emphasize that I don't have a problem with the Book of Mormon, this is just what we were told at the Lutheran school I attended. Keep in mind we were also told that anyone who didn't believe exactly what we believed was going to hell - Catholics, Methodists, Jews, Hindus, non-believers; even those who had never had a chance to accept what we were taught.

That was a big problem I had with that church as I got older. I just couldn't understand why God would send someone to Hell just for believing what they were raised to believe.

Moebius

02-13-2006, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by TrueBeliever
That was a big problem I had with that church as I got older. I just couldn't understand why God would send someone to Hell just for believing what they were raised to believe.

Yeah, that was one of the few times in my life I've ever been completely angered in a religious discussion. Ended up in a chat with a guy who was the minister at one of the local giagantachurces when we came to a discussion about one of my friends who had just lost a newborn to SIDS. I was pretty upset about that as it was when the guy spouts "A tragedy the kid's going to hell". I just about hit him. I asked him if he was implying that the God he preaches about would send an infant who didn't have a chance to even believe in anything, let alone sin to hell. He stammered around a bit with that, and I had to walk away.

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by Moebius
Yeah, that was one of the few times in my life I've ever been completely angered in a religious discussion. Ended up in a chat with a guy who was the minister at one of the local giagantachurces when we came to a discussion about one of my friends who had just lost a newborn to SIDS. I was pretty upset about that as it was when the guy spouts "A tragedy the kid's going to hell". I just about hit him. I asked him if he was implying that the God he preaches about would send an infant who didn't have a chance to even believe in anything, let alone sin to hell. He stammered around a bit with that, and I had to walk away.

Bah! There is no hell, unless you count Detroit.

pookie

02-13-2006, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Moebius
C'mon, admit it. We're crazy. :D Everyone knows it.

When I was in high school, my friends and I all took a couple of months to go to each others' churches to learn about them. We had a First Christian (not sure what that really denomination derives from), a Baptist, a Catholic, an Episcopalian, and the Mormon me. Mostly we learned two things. Most religions are basically alike, and that alot of folks hate Mormons.

The week we went to the Baptist friends church, the pastor (or minister, whichever he's called) chose that day to give an anti-Mormon sermon. It was rather funny for all of us to listen to him. Me because I know my own religion and my friends because they knew my family. He was basically quoting stuff from the more popular anti-Mormon books and literature. Stuff like we have to take showers with one foot outside touching garments, which was my favorite. We spent most of the time trying to control our giggling.

Afterwards, the Pastor came up to us to chide my member friend. He said that he wasn't sure all the guy's statements were accurate. He assured us that he knew what he was talking about and asked why we'd question that. My friend pointed to me and told him I was Mormon. He then proceeded to try and prove his statements until I started listing some of the books he'd used to quote from. After that he got flustered and stalked off.

My friend never went back (not sure about his parents). Though he didn't convert to LDS or anything, he told me there's no way he could respect someone who's supposed to be religious using his position to spread lies and ill will.

Among my friends, we decided every religion is crazy looking unless you believe in it.

Dude, Moebs.... You're not a mormon. You're just a little confused with the premise here and you added an extra "m".

Seriously though, you're born and raised in the bible belt, family in Mississippi and now you're telling us that you're mormon? Who'd have thought?

I don't care either way about the mormons or jehova's. Just more people to me. One of my best buddies is a jehova. A drinking, smoking farting jehova. We'd get into funny-ass arguments when drinking back in the day and he'd occasionally come back with a "don't make me knock on your door and go Watchtower on your ass pookie!"

Ras

02-13-2006, 09:51 PM

Several years ago, during the summer, there must have been some sort of contest between magazine sellers and religious door knockers to see how many of them can knock on my door before I got pissed off.

If I remember correctly, I had 2 magazine sellers and 3 different holy rollers come to my door on a Saturday. Every time, I was called to the door because no one in family has the balls to say no and close the door. (Plus being 6'1" and large, standing about 8" above the front porch, I guess there is "scary" factor there").

Well on Sunday, I got another visit from a holy roller and I got so pissed I told them that I was in the middle of my weekly Satan study group. I then told them we were discussing human vs. animal sacrifices and that we could use another point of view in the discussion.

Well the look on their faces were priceless and they left very quickly. I watched them as they walked down my driveway, the signaled to the others in the "clan" and they got in their van and left the entire neighborhood.

Now if there is a way I can get rid of the magazine salesman......

Alcoholic9*

02-13-2006, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Moebius
Just avoiding distractions. This day and age, if you think about it, it kinda makes sense. TV ain't exactly good wholesome material these days.

Don't attempt to attack my world like this. :D

Bible vs TV

Sex - check
Violence - check
Moral Values - (ever watch full house?) check

I'm gonna call it a draw. :thumb:

JLC

02-13-2006, 10:34 PM

Someone told me Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Halloween. Something about they don't like strange people showing up on their doorstep uninvited.

Is that true? :D

TrueBeliever

02-13-2006, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by JLC
Someone told me Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Halloween. Something about they don't like strange people showing up on their doorstep uninvited.

Is that true? :D

It's true that they don't celebrate Halloween.

Costanza

02-13-2006, 11:28 PM

Or any Holidays.

Moebius

02-13-2006, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by pookie
Dude, Moebs.... You're not a mormon. You're just a little confused with the premise here and you added an extra "m".

Well, you know how it goes. Besides, it's something to take pride in. Even charitable. There was one member of the church some years back that started working with mentally challenged people. Trying to teach them, have fun, all the good stuff. Eventually he started trying to teach them to sing. After practice, if they'd done well, he'd given them a snack, usually fruit (they liked apples) and something to drink. He usually went for diet soft drinks, after all, sugar rushes with this crowd could be bad. Eventually, they got pretty good and the rest, as pretty much anyone should know, is history. They formed

The Moron Tab & Apple Choir.

yeah, I know it's bad, but it had to happen. Pookie made me remember that from when I was growing up.

bideau

02-14-2006, 06:21 AM

Wow, am I glad I'm an atheist. My head is spinning with all this theology. Although it is very interesting. So many different beliefs and everyone thinks their's is the correct one. Many have their religion chosen for them at birth; some choose it because of love; others shop for the one that comes closest to their core morals.

As Spock would say, "Fascinating, Jim." :spock:

I live my life by the rules of common human decency....Love, protect and respect my family; don't do harm to others. I've had family members say they pray for me...that's OK, I know it's meant out of love.

What is really intersting about this thread is that it shows that religion does not have to degenerate into a flame fest.

Well done, Planeteers :thumb:

mikiemo83

02-14-2006, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by Ras-Al-Ghul
...Well on Sunday, I got another visit from a holy roller and I got so pissed I told them that I was in the middle of my weekly Satan study group. I then told them we were discussing human vs. animal sacrifices and that we could use another point of view in the discussion.

Well the look on their faces were priceless and they left very quickly. I watched them as they walked down my driveway, the signaled to the others in the "clan" and they got in their van and left the entire neighborhood.

Now if there is a way I can get rid of the magazine salesman...... Ras, I used to do the same thing you did. I would grab a beer out of the fridge (no matter what time), find a cig if I could (I didn't smoke but family did at the time) and call my dog satan (a protective shar pei). I would open the door, stand there in my boxer briefs holding a beer yelling at the barking dog " satan get to your cage". I was little over 6' 1" weight of 275 with bleached blonde hair in a pony tail (as I called myself - walking birth control - before my back injury I was a big solid guy)

I know this was the wrong thing to do but don't go to a house at 9 am on a saturday and expect a welcome wagon. My friend - a jehovah at the time - was told about my house on a couple of occasions. He quit the church when his parents told him he had to find new friends and they haven't talked to him since - Its been a few years now. His parents followed the catholic to born again catholic movement with my mom and aunt, they were all friends. My mom went back to straight catholic but his went to JW and my aunt went on to become a follower of the latest magazine minister to come to town.

while I believe in the bible, I have a hard time with how the churches all call the other ones wrong, a very spiritual older woman once told me to attend any and every church, learn from them all and make your own decision - if church for you is a ring of stones with a fire out in the woods - god is listening and hearing your prayers just as well as the prayes of others in those buildings with the cross on them

so what I guess I'm saying is it's the same god, we all just comprehend his words a bit differently.

Moebius

02-14-2006, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by mikiemo83
so what I guess I'm saying is it's the same god, we all just comprehend his words a bit differently.

That's the general idea. It's all good, well, except for the heathen unbeliever Bid who deserves to be flamed repeatedly. :D The rest of us are ok though.

Undertaker #59

02-14-2006, 07:55 AM

Wow...what a deep discussion.

JH, I just wanted to say I hope you do not get offended by things on the board and quit as you alluded to. You have been a great addition to the board, and your connection with LoLo is unique.

Benign Despot

02-14-2006, 08:00 AM

Kudos to the group for having a religious discussion without tossing hand grenades at one and other. I always suspected it could be done.

Since I'm not a "believer" (not a disbeliever either) I tend to look at religion with something of a biased eye. On the positive side It gives individuals a sense of beloning and community and for many a sense of purpose in life.

On the other hand I've always been troubled by the propensity of every religion to claim a monopoly on "Truth". This reduces the "non-believer" to at best a "poor misguided soul" and at worst the "evil-other". In my opinion more evil his been done in the name of this idea than any other in the history of man.

By definition, faith can't be proven. It is what one believes, and if that's as far as it goes we can all live together and get along. When one chooses to treat his or her belief system as an objective fact, that's where the disagreements, and the trouble start.

Beleive what you will (or won't) and allow others to do the same. Despite what you have heard from some, that is the priniple this country was founded on.

bideau

02-14-2006, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Moebius
That's the general idea. It's all good, well, except for the heathen unbeliever Bid who deserves to be flamed repeatedly. :D The rest of us are ok though.

>) :fire:

And I'll echo what UT said...Hope you stick around, JH.

cka203

02-14-2006, 08:07 AM

Guess I'll add my .02 to this discussion, since it's the off-season and there's so little to talk about... ;)

I was raised in a Christian church, and switched to a Baptist church in my mid-20s. I believe what the Bible says, and I believe in Heaven and Hell. Also that Jesus is the Son of God, and that belief in Him and acceptance of Him as your personal Saviour is the only way a person will get into Heaven.

It doesn't matter to me what church you go to, or what doctrines you subscribe to, or even if you don't attend church.....

The bottom line is, if you believe in Jesus and accept Him as your personal Saviour, and strive to live by His words, you are a child of God and will be welcomed into Heaven.

JMO

mikiemo83

02-14-2006, 08:08 AM

bid a little less >) and you might not have heated up th eroots and burnt all that hair off, might be time for you to try a little tenderness - I know
you may get weary,
the mods do get weary,
reading those same ol' shabby post,
but when you get weary,
try a little tenderness

a littel trivia on try a little tenderness once recorded by bing crosby in 1933

Benign Despot

02-14-2006, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by TrueBeliever
Not only that, but (if the TV news program reports are to be believed) they are often physically and sexually abusive and essentially hold members of their family captive. Sounds more like David Koresh than Brigham Young.

What we were told was wrong with LDS in the church and school I was raised in was that their teachings derive from the Book of Mormon, which Lutherans (and most other denominations) do not recognize as being from God.

But in recent years I have heard scholars talk about how there have been many different versions of the Bible over the years, and how other gospels and books were held out from the Bible altogether due to what religious officials centuries ago felt should and should not be included. So who are we to say what is part of the Bible and what is not?

It was called the council of Nicea TB, arguably the 2nd most important moment in the history of Christianity.

player

02-14-2006, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by cka203
Guess I'll add my .02 to this discussion, since it's the off-season and there's so little to talk about... ;)

I was raised in a Christian church, and switched to a Baptist church in my mid-20s. I believe what the Bible says, and I believe in Heaven and Hell. Also that Jesus is the Son of God, and that belief in Him and acceptance of Him as your personal Saviour is the only way a person will get into Heaven.

It doesn't matter to me what church you go to, or what doctrines you subscribe to, or even if you don't attend church.....

The bottom line is, if you believe in Jesus and accept Him as your personal Saviour, and strive to live by His words, you are a child of God and will be welcomed into Heaven.

JMO

Do you believe in the possibility of lntelligent life on other planets? If so, do you think that they have ever heard of a person named Jesus from the planet Earth?

Just something to chew on.

mikiemo83

02-14-2006, 08:16 AM

dchester

02-14-2006, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by Jheavner
I would say a lot of the people in the Church are attractive, because we take care of our bodies.

And there are some crazies in Utah that try to splinter off and make their own version so they can still practice polygamy. We are very against them. (Note to self: Must move to Utah)
________
oxygen vaporizer (http://oxygenvaporizer.com)

cka203

02-14-2006, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by player
Do you believe in the possibility of lntelligent life on other planets? If so, do you think that they have ever heard of a person named Jesus from the planet Earth?

Just something to chew on.

Honestly, I don't know. :shrug:

But I don't recall anything in the Bible stating this possibility.

All I remember is "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth, and the Earth was without form," yada, yada. In the creation story, we read of all the animals, plants, etc., and people, but I believe it says He created them all on the Earth. As for the other planets, I don't recall any mention of life being created there.

Which begs the question... what is their purpose?

That's for greater minds than mine to figure out! :p

BradyGirl

02-14-2006, 08:28 AM

I went to Salem on Halloween about six or seven years ago with my sis and her hubby. We had to park outside of town because of the crowds. Walking in with hundreds of other people, we met a couple of Mormons heading into town. They were white, under 30, and all juiced about spreading the word to the Goths and Witches and just plain Halloween celebrators. They were very upbeat and optimistic. Wonder if they got any converts that night. >)

player

02-14-2006, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by cka203
Honestly, I don't know. :shrug:

But I don't recall anything in the Bible stating this possibility.

All I remember is "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth, and the Earth was without form," yada, yada. In the creation story, we read of all the animals, plants, etc., and people, but I believe it says He created them all on the Earth. As for the other planets, I don't recall any mention of life being created there.

Which begs the question... what is their purpose?

That's for greater minds than mine to figure out! :p

I would take Earth in "heavens and the earth" as land..not specifically the planet Earth.

Of course, there are many who believe that life does not have to be "created" either.

Number Cruncher

02-14-2006, 08:33 AM

Seems a little relevant......

One Sunday morning an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin. Although the old man and his clothes were spotlessly clean, he wore jeans, a denim shirt and boots that were very worn and ragged. In his hand he carried a worn out old hat and an equally worn out Bible.

The church he entered was in a very upscale and exclusive part of the city. It was the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen. The people of the congregation were all dressed with expensive clothes and accessories.

As the cowboy took a seat, the others moved away from him. No one greeted, spoke to, or welcomed him. They were all appalled at his appearance and did not attempt to hide it.

As the old cowboy was leaving the church, the preacher approached him and asked the cowboy to do him a favor. "Before you come back in here again, have a talk with God and ask him what he thinks would be appropriate attire for worship." The old cowboy assured the preacher he would.

The next Sunday, he showed back up for the services wearing the same ragged jeans, shirt, boots, and hat. Once again he was completely shunned and ignored. The preacher approached the man and said, "I thought I asked you to speak to God before you came back to our church."

"I did," replied the old cowboy.

"If you spoke to God, what did he tell you the proper attire should be for worshiping in here?" asked the preacher.

"Well, sir, God told me that He didn't have a clue what I should wear. He said He'd never been in this church "

bideau

02-14-2006, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by cka203
Guess I'll add my .02 to this discussion, since it's the off-season and there's so little to talk about... ;)

I was raised in a Christian church, and switched to a Baptist church in my mid-20s. I believe what the Bible says, and I believe in Heaven and Hell. Also that Jesus is the Son of God, and that belief in Him and acceptance of Him as your personal Saviour is the only way a person will get into Heaven.

It doesn't matter to me what church you go to, or what doctrines you subscribe to, or even if you don't attend church.....

The bottom line is, if you believe in Jesus and accept Him as your personal Saviour, and strive to live by His words, you are a child of God and will be welcomed into Heaven.

JMO

This is not intended as a flame...just a legitimate question out of curiosity.

Do you believe that the majority of the world's population: Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists....people who have been born into their faiths and believe just as fervently as you do, cannot be rewarded if there is an afterlife? Even though they probably have led virtuous lives every bit as good as a fundamentalist christian? Does your belief allow for the "salvation" of all these people?

dchester

02-14-2006, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by mgoblue101415
The one thing I never understood about religions such as LDS and Baptists is the utter ban on drinking alcohol. It's not all Baptists that are against drinking, it's mostly the Southern Baptist denomination that is so vocal against it (granted, that is the largest Baptist group). FWIW, my family is Baptist, we have no issue with drinking, and our church isn't filled with sermons on that demon booze.

I do agree that some religious groups seem to emphasize various things that don't appear to be all that important to me, and I get a little annoyed when they emphasize things that aren't in (or contradict what's in) the Bible.

As far as I'm concerned, drinking in and of itself, is not a sin. Now if drinking (or anything else for that matter) causes you to sin, then you shouldn't do it.
________
Toyota Mark II Blit specifications (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Mark_II_Blit)

player

02-14-2006, 08:37 AM

dchester

02-14-2006, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Jheavner
Ok, guys, I hope you don't hate me now, but I am a Mormon. FWIW, I don't hate you (or anyone else for worshiping God). Basically I have great respect for all true believers. The way I see it, Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God, but we all have different rituals for how we do it (of course the American Baptist method is the best of all).
:D
________
Honda RVF400 (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_RVF400)

cka203

02-14-2006, 08:50 AM

mikiemo83

02-14-2006, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by player
Good quesion..forget the Aliens...we have most of Earth's population not even going to heaven... who's right and who is wrong? I don't know

isn't god all forgiving and wants us to live life a certain way, so I may not be your choice of belief but I believe with his/her forgiveness, based on living my life correctly, I should go to heaven.

plus hell is ascared I'll take over>)

bideau

02-14-2006, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by player
Good quesion..forget the Aliens...we have most of Earth's population not even going to heaven...

It's truly a question I've never been able to quite understand.

I've always felt that if there is a higher power, that the quality of a person's life and their deeds would be far more important than the specific belief that they followed through their lives. I just cannot fathom the idea of a God sprinkling contradictions and mysteries through out the Universe then expecting us to sort through it all to find the one true answer. Seems kind of sadistic to me.

cka203

02-14-2006, 08:56 AM

cka203

02-14-2006, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by PatPatriot
Seems a little relevant......

One Sunday morning an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin. Although the old man and his clothes were spotlessly clean, he wore jeans, a denim shirt and boots that were very worn and ragged. In his hand he carried a worn out old hat and an equally worn out Bible.

The church he entered was in a very upscale and exclusive part of the city. It was the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen. The people of the congregation were all dressed with expensive clothes and accessories.

As the cowboy took a seat, the others moved away from him. No one greeted, spoke to, or welcomed him. They were all appalled at his appearance and did not attempt to hide it.

As the old cowboy was leaving the church, the preacher approached him and asked the cowboy to do him a favor. "Before you come back in here again, have a talk with God and ask him what he thinks would be appropriate attire for worship." The old cowboy assured the preacher he would.

The next Sunday, he showed back up for the services wearing the same ragged jeans, shirt, boots, and hat. Once again he was completely shunned and ignored. The preacher approached the man and said, "I thought I asked you to speak to God before you came back to our church."

"I did," replied the old cowboy.

"If you spoke to God, what did he tell you the proper attire should be for worshiping in here?" asked the preacher.

"Well, sir, God told me that He didn't have a clue what I should wear. He said He'd never been in this church "

Hammer, meet nail. :thumb:

mikiemo83

02-14-2006, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by bideau
I just cannot fathom the idea of a God sprinkling contradictions and mysteries through out the Universe then expecting us to sort through it all to find the one true answer. . I look at it like the secret game, everyone sits in a circle and the 1st person tells the second in secret a story, by the time it gets to the end many parts are the same but others parts are missing or embelished. God gave us a bible, his son and the chance to run with it.

there are many questions. was Jesus his son? is the bible edited? do we choose to beleive?
it is still the same god and we all want to believe our choice of belief is the correct one but is it?

who am I to tell anyone what to believe, I'm just a sinner looking for a way to be forgiven and eternal life

BizarroAnnihilus

02-14-2006, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by bideau
This is not intended as a flame...just a legitimate question out of curiosity.

Do you believe that the majority of the world's population: Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists....people who have been born into their faiths and believe just as fervently as you do, cannot be rewarded if there is an afterlife? Even though they probably have led virtuous lives every bit as good as a fundamentalist christian? Does your belief allow for the "salvation" of all these people?

This is the big wall that Annihilus runs into when considering religion. While Annihilus used to be more of an Aetheist, he is now really more Agnostic than anything. Out of all the study and immersions in different faiths from Baptist to Voodoo, there has always been something that Annihilus just couldn't get past. In the more mainstream religions, it's the point you brought up above (which is quite a large point in Annihilus's opinion).

The less mainstream religions (like Santeria or Voodoo) are really not much different on the inside....but look a whole lot different on the outside. They have a pantheon of Gods instead of just one and perform 'spells' instead of praying. For Annihilus, the problem with these beliefs are the supernatural trappings. While the performing of rituals are really not much different from other religions, the stories of their Gods are far-fetched.

The one thing that most folks that are confined to one religion miss out on is the color and pagentry that are possessed by religions of other cultures. While the ultimate goal of the beliefs on the inside are much the same (including many very similar fables), the dressing on the outside is vastly different.

Not to mention life on other planets.....which Annihilus believes exists. They most likely have never heard of any of the tales that inspire the religions of Earth.

If Annihilus was to pick a religion that most suited him, it would probably be Buddhism, though he is comfortable around people of all faiths. Unless they're pushy.

Needless to say, Mom and Dad are Southern Baptists (living in Montana....go figure). They have the strongest faith that Annihilus has ever seen. People with faith like that are pretty lucky folks. He wishes that everyone could have faith like that.

Dunno if that fits into the conversation, really....but there ya go.

bideau

02-14-2006, 09:08 AM

Anni, I think you've been listening in on my thoughts, which is a frightening prospect :eek:

BizarroAnnihilus

02-14-2006, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by bideau
Anni, I think you've been listening in on my thoughts, which is a frightening prospect :eek:

Hey....contrary to popular belief, it's not all that scary in Annihilus's head ;)

player

02-14-2006, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by cka203
I believe the Bible clearly states that salvation comes thru belief in and acceptance of Jesus, as the Son of the Living God, as your personal Saviour.

Therefore, anyone (for whatever reason) who does not believe, or who rejects Him, will not be saved.

However, I also believe that everyone will be given an opportunity to learn of Him and make a decision. That's what free will is all about. He will not force you to believe, but will give you opportunities, before your time comes to an end.

That's what I've been taught, and that's what I believe.

Not meant to offend, just answering the question.

I guess those who were raised Christians have a huge advantage then Huh?.. Too convenient, IMO.

According to your beliefs, everyone else on the face of the planet must disregard what they were taught since birth.

That just can't be right...and sounds more along the lines of "my religion is the only right one, everyone else is wrong". This line of reasoning has only led to one thing since the beginning of man....hatred and war.

dchester

02-14-2006, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by player
I guess those who were raised Christians have a huge advantage then Huh?.. Too convenient, IMO.

According to your beliefs, everyone else on the face of the planet must disregard what they were taught since birth.

That just can't be right...and sounds more along the lines of "my religion is the only right one, everyone else is wrong". This line of reasoning has only led to one thing since the beginning of man....hatred and war. Player, We've been having a pretty good discussion here, and everyone's been quite civil. I'm hoping you're not going to turn this thread into a flame war.

I think it would be much more constructive for you to state what your believes are, rather than attacking someone else's beliefs.
________
extreme vaporizer (http://extremevaporizer.net/)

mikiemo83

02-14-2006, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by player
I guess those who were raised Christians have a huge advantage then Huh?.. Too convenient, IMO.

According to your beliefs, everyone else on the face of the planet must disregard what they were taught since birth.

That just can't be right...and sounds more along the lines of "my religion is the only right one, everyone else is wrong". This line of reasoning has only led to one thing since the beginning of man....hatred and war. I think whatever you believe is the correct one for you, I never push my beliefs on anyone, choose for yourself if damnation is what you want o:-)

I think faith is one of the greatest healing powers in mankind, I see people who have faith keep a great mental approach to healing and it appears to me they do heal better. Many of them believe in a different religous path than I but it doesn't matter, faith in your belief is what give you strength to fight.

bideau

02-14-2006, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by dchester
Player, We've been having a pretty good discussion here, and everyone's been quite civil. I'm hoping you're not going to turn this thread into a flame war.

I think it would be much more constructive for you to state what your believes are, rather than attacking someone else's beliefs.

Agree 100%, D. I'm finding this discussion interesting from a philosophical point of view. I'm not interested in attacking someone's belief, I'm just trying to understand it.

Cka has been kind enough (and brave enough) to simply state her belief. She's been very respectful of others and, to me personally, she's been very supportive in other matters. My questions for her have been asked so I can try to understand. If she chooses not to answer further, that's her right and I respect it.

I'd hate to see this have to get moved because it turned hostile.

cka203

02-14-2006, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by bideau
Agree 100%, D. I'm finding this discussion interesting from a philosophical point of view. I'm not interested in attacking someone's belief, I'm just trying to understand it.

Cka has been kind enough (and brave enough) to simply state her belief. She's been very respectful of others and, to me personally, she's been very supportive in other matters. My questions for her have been asked so I can try to understand. If she chooses not to answer further, that's her right and I respect it.

I'd hate to see this have to get moved because it turned hostile.

Thanks! :)

Honestly, I'm not offended by anyone's remarks thus far, and I see no reason for the thread to be moved (at least, not yet).

I, too, am enjoying this discussion, and am simply stating MY beliefs, in addition to everyone else posting theirs.

Religion is a personal thing, and I'm sure everyone thinks their way is the right way. Even those who have no religion believe they are right.

BizarroAnnihilus

02-14-2006, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by bideau
I'd hate to see this have to get moved because it turned hostile.

Ditto on all counts. This thread has thus far been enlightening, let's not mess that up.

BradyGirl

02-14-2006, 10:06 AM

I was raised Catholic. I've since left that church (even before the pedophilia scandal) and have thought out what I believe about religion.

Organized religion often brings out the best and worst in people. Those who grab positions of power in a church or sect make the rules, and then threaten everyone else with retribution from their particular god if they don't toe the party line. Or else they pull a con on the sheep, er, flock.

Case in point: the Catholic church hid and shuffled around pedophiles for years. Why? Not because some in the hierarchy actually cared about the unsuspecting flock, but worried about the Church's image.

Are there sincere people in organized religion? Sure. Are there charlatans out there taking your money and running your lives with religious edicts? Sure.

I think that no matter if you worship a God, Goddess, Buddha, a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses, etc., etc., if you're a decent human being who doesn't hurt others and tries to live a good life, believes in love, then you'll end up in the same place. Just different paths, religious or otherwise.

cka203

02-14-2006, 10:10 AM

Having said what I've said here already, here's something else to chew on.....

I've gone on record as saying I've been taught, and believe, that the Bible says belief in and acceptance of Jesus as Son of God and personal Saviour is the only way to attain entrance into Heaven.

This also implies, IMO, each person must make an informed decision and willful choice to accept Christ and His teachings.

So.....

What about those who are unable to do so? Those with mental disabilities who are unable to comprehend the deep spiritual complexities, or even the simple teachings?

As most of you here know, my son has autism, is mostly non-verbal, and it is very difficult to assess just how much he understands. He also appears to view the world in a literal sense. Is he now, or will he ever, be able to comprehend faith? Does he have the capacity to understand the teachings, and to either accept or reject? And what if he doesn't?

Ras

02-14-2006, 10:12 AM

I was born and baptized into the Roman Catholic Church, I had my communion and confirmation. My son was baptized as a Catholic, but we have never pressed that issue on him any further. It would be hard to tell him to go to church or to Catechism when we do not.

I believe in God, Jesus and most of the teachings of the church. What I do not believe in the church as man has made it. How can I believe in anything man made and contradictory as the Catholic church? Here is an organization that if it were a country, it would be the 4th richest in the world. Sell a few paintings and feed a few thousand people.

I guess you could say I am a lazy catholic, but I figured out a long time ago that if I live my life in such a way that I have no regrets, no criminal record, no outstanding warrants, do no physical harm to others, love and respect my family, be kind to others, help the needy, pay my debts, root for the Patriots and give back to my community, who is going to say that I am going to hell? Certainly no one on earth, except for those psycho Colts fans.

I also find it hard to go to a closet once a week to "confess" my sins to someone who maybe diddling little children behind the alter after church services. I think his crimes far outweigh anything I did during the past week.

I leave you with this....The true path to enlightenment does not start with a lantern, but a step in the dark......

Now, enough of this religious bullshit and let's get back to regular programming......

player

02-14-2006, 10:15 AM

cka203

02-14-2006, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by player
If there is a heaven, rest assured, your son will be there someday. IMO

wuv wuv wuv

Costanza

02-14-2006, 10:32 AM

Wow, you guys have a 3 hour start on me with the time zones and all.

Hmm,

There are many good people in this world that aren't a part of any religion. Doesn't mean anyone who does is better than anyone else.

I am not a fan of the 700 club people, who hate those who aren't like them. That is the most un-Christian thing you could do. I think these people actually need to read the Bible.

cka, in my Church we are taught that those with disorders who really cannot do what we do, are given a free pass. I think it can be understood as they know too much, just like very small children, so they can't communicate that well.

I really like how everyone is being very cool. Most people get all crazy and offended when someone states beliefs that aren't their own. Nice to see the co-habitation.

I can understand why people don't believe. I mean, I sit back and read the Scriptures and remind my self that this stuff really happened. There are some very far out things that happened. Without Faith, you probably couldn't just take anyone's word for it.

This has been a question, so I'll try to answer it. What happens to those that never get taught, such as different cultures. Everyone gets a second chance. When we all die and go to where we need to go, we'll see the truth, and then if we can accept that, we move on. If not, adyios (in my best John Wayne voice.)

PS I am glad y'all want me to stay

cka203

02-14-2006, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Jheavner

PS I am glad y'all want me to stay

:thumb:

Glad you're hangin' with us!

Moebius

02-14-2006, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Jheavner
PS I am glad y'all want me to stay

Nah, get out of here. I had the exclusive rights on Mormon poster until you came along and ruined for me. :D

just kidding of course. It's cool having a fellow cultist zealout (been called that more than once in my life) around. :)

Moebius

02-14-2006, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by bideau
It's truly a question I've never been able to quite understand.

I've always felt that if there is a higher power, that the quality of a person's life and their deeds would be far more important than the specific belief that they followed through their lives. I just cannot fathom the idea of a God sprinkling contradictions and mysteries through out the Universe then expecting us to sort through it all to find the one true answer. Seems kind of sadistic to me.

Ya know, this reminds me of an episode of Futurama. For those who know the show, basically Bender (the robot) got shot out into space. As he was drifting he suddenly had a civilization of tiny beings crop up on his body. They took him as their God, worshipped him and all that. Long story short, he started playing God, trying to help by directly intervening and such, and the civilization ended up destroying itself. As Bender floated on, he ran into an omnipresent nebula that he assumed was God. He started explaining how he kept trying to help but things just got worse. The nebula explained that if you do things right, people never even know you were there.

End the end, Bender got back home, and Fry and Leela had left some Monks trapped in a closet at the big telescope they were using to find him. They started to shrug it off when Bender proclaimed that they had to go rescue them cuz God certainly wasn't going to do it. Then right before the credits you see the Nebula and hear a chuckle. When you do things right, nobody even knows you were there.

Silly TV show and all, but I kinda liked that message.

mgoblue101415

02-14-2006, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by cka203
Having said what I've said here already, here's something else to chew on.....

I've gone on record as saying I've been taught, and believe, that the Bible says belief in and acceptance of Jesus as Son of God and personal Saviour is the only way to attain entrance into Heaven.

This also implies, IMO, each person must make an informed decision and willful choice to accept Christ and His teachings.

So.....

What about those who are unable to do so? Those with mental disabilities who are unable to comprehend the deep spiritual complexities, or even the simple teachings?

As most of you here know, my son has autism, is mostly non-verbal, and it is very difficult to assess just how much he understands. He also appears to view the world in a literal sense. Is he now, or will he ever, be able to comprehend faith? Does he have the capacity to understand the teachings, and to either accept or reject? And what if he doesn't?

I've always felt, like others mentioned, that those with disabilities would be given a free pass.

Now, I'm thinking maybe they don't need it.

This past Sat, at the end of the Pastor's sermon, he told a story of a couple whose son was born with extreme mental retardation. And this isn't going to be exact, but it's pretty much what the pastor said.

This handicap was bad enough that they put him in a home. They went and saw him every week though. And like you cka, they were concerned about his spiritual side. How could he accept Jesus when he barely understood what was going on. What was going to happen to him after death.

One time, when the kid is 15, they go to see him and they take him for a ride. Up till this point, the kid has never said more than a word at a time, and even that was a rarity.

As they're driving along, the kid, out of nowhere says "Jesus died for us. Jesus saved us." The parents turn around in complete shock, not only because it was the most their son had ever spoken, but obviously because of what he said.

When they got back to the hospital the parents talked to the doctor who informed them that there had been a man in that week giving religious studies and that their son had sat there listening to the man the entire time he was there.

Now, people could say that the kid was just mimicking what he heard. But seeing as how the child had never uttered two words together, the timing and the message, IMO, can't be ignored. And it really got me to thinking...

Even those children or adults who seem to have absolutely no mental capacitity to grasp what's going on in the world around them.... So they can't communicate with the people around them but what's to stop God from communicating with them? I believe God can get through to them.

Ras

02-14-2006, 11:24 AM

I like when Homer goes "doh!"

cka203

02-14-2006, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by mgoblue101415
I've always felt, like others mentioned, that those with disabilities would be given a free pass.

Now, I'm thinking maybe they don't need it.

This past Sat, at the end of the Pastor's sermon, he told a story of a couple whose son was born with extreme mental retardation. And this isn't going to be exact, but it's pretty much what the pastor said.

This handicap was bad enough that they put him in a home. They went and saw him every week though. And like you cka, they were concerned about his spiritual side. How could he accept Jesus when he barely understood what was going on. What was going to happen to him after death.

One time, when the kid is 15, they go to see him and they take him for a ride. Up till this point, the kid has never said more than a word at a time, and even that was a rarity.

As they're driving along, the kid, out of nowhere says "Jesus died for us. Jesus saved us." The parents turn around in complete shock, not only because it was the most their son had ever spoken, but obviously because of what he said.

When they got back to the hospital the parents talked to the doctor who informed them that there had been a man in that week giving religious studies and that their son had sat there listening to the man the entire time he was there.

Now, people could say that the kid was just mimicking what he heard. But seeing as how the child had never uttered two words together, the timing and the message, IMO, can't be ignored. And it really got me to thinking...

Even those children or adults who seem to have absolutely no mental capacitity to grasp what's going on in the world around them.... So they can't communicate with the people around them but what's to stop God from communicating with them? I believe God can get through to them.

Wow, mgo, that actually brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for posting that!

Alcoholic9*

02-14-2006, 11:31 AM

I don't put much stock in any religion. I believe what a lot of people here have said, basically lead a "good" life and don't hurt other people (without good reason anyway) and you'll be fine.

I do believe there is an afterlife. I've read hundreds of near death experience accounts and my girls father was there once and got the old "you have to go back it's not your time" line. :D

Either that or me Bid and Anni will all be watching the Pats games in Hell together. Although seeing how it's Hell they'll probably only get Colts games. :banghead:

mgoblue101415

02-14-2006, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
Either that or me Bid and Anni will all be watching the Pats games in Hell together. Although seeing how it's Hell they'll probably only get Colts games. :banghead:

Hello.... Didn't you see Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey???????

It's your own personal Hell. So every bad thing that ever happened to you, you know get to relive for eternity.

Good luck :thumb:

Note: I really don't believe that's what hell is, just going off what the movie said.

TrueBeliever

02-14-2006, 12:14 PM

There's so many different points of discussion that have been brought up here that I can't say everything I'd like to. So I'll jump to one point.

When I was in college, one of the campus Christian groups sponsored a debate on the existence of God. They brought in a renowned, accomplished speaker who had done several such debates to do the pro-God side, and a Religious Studies/Philosophy professor for the no-God side.

I'll skip most of the detail about why I felt the event basically made the campus Christian group look like a bunch of jerks and jump to the one thing the prof said that has stuck with me all these years. (Oh man, as I write this I realize that it has been almost 10 years since this happened.)

He said that as you study the history of early man, every civilization or culture sooner or later will start claiming there is some sort of superior being, higher power, etc. that created them and that they are supposed to honor and worship and who will teach them how to live. He felt that every civilization feels the need to invent this higher power to explain things that could not be ordinarily explained, and as a way to control its people.

It wasn't until four or five years later that I thought to myself, "Couldn't it be that every civilization has come into contact with God and simply found their own way of interpreting Him, which is why there are so many varied religions that, when you boil them down, basically say the same thing?"

There has to be a God. How else is it possible that this planet just appeared here with all its environmental conditions magically set up just right to support so many varied forms of life? It just doesn't add up. It's like a speaker at another Christian presentation I was at in college said - say you take all the components of a watch, put them in a box, put the cover on the box and shake it up for five minutes.

Now, what are the odds that, by the random shaking, the parts will come together perfectly in the right order and make a functioning watch? Possible? Yes. Likely? Not at all.

BizarroAnnihilus

02-14-2006, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by TrueBeliever
Now, what are the odds that, by the random shaking, the parts will come together perfectly in the right order and make a functioning watch? Possible? Yes. Likely? Not at all.

Annihilus is no expert at statistics, but it seems to him that you have to take into account the vast size of the universe (not to mention throwing time into the equation, which adds a whole other dimension).

When you have a cosmos that has (as far as humans know) an infinite amount of planets contained in an infinite number of solar systems, etc., etc.....your odds of coming across a planet capable of sustaining a civilization like our Earth has is pretty small. However, it is not so small as to be unlikely. In fact, it seems to Annihilus that the odds are quite likely that there are hordes of planets out there with life approaching those of our world (or even more advanced).

Just throwing an arbitrary number out there.....let's say that 1 in 1 Billion planets has life forms like our own. That number in and of itself is quite small.....but if there are an infinite number of planets in the universe, then that makes it a whole hell of a lot more likely that there are plenty of other habitated planets in existence out there.

And an infinite number of religions (or whatever you want to call it) to go along with them.

Costanza

02-14-2006, 01:08 PM

When my boy was 2 months, we were looking at a magazine from our Church. It had a picture of Christ in it. He was on my MIL lap and all of a sudden he started cooing and got all wide eyed and excited seeing the picture. When she put the picture down to play with him, he stopped abruptly. Then she put it back so he could see and he got all excited again. We did this a few times, each time he would look into the picture, with the biggest smiles and happiness, and then it was gone when he couldn't see the picture. We tried with another pic, a non-religious one, to see if he just liked the colors or something. No reaction. Then we showed him the picture of Christ again and he started to get all crazy again.

That was beautiful. No doubt in my mind, he recognized Him.

Insert crazy comments here.

Benign Despot

02-14-2006, 01:12 PM

The other problem with the "Probabilty Proof" is that you are looking backward at it.

If you were to ask me, the day after the Jets Game in 2001 "What are the Odds the Patriots will win Super Bowl XXXVI?" I might have said 200-1 against.

If you ask me the same question in March 2001 I would have said "It's certain - They already won"

In the naturalistic model, the improbable DID happen. The proof is that we are here to contemplate it. The improbabilty is irrelevant.

If the odds are infinity minus one to one against something happening, and it happens, you can't claim that it didn't happen because it was improbable.

For the record, I'm not trying to change anyones mind, there are many proofs of the existance of a supreme being, but this one just doesn't hold up in my opinion.

Alcoholic9*

02-14-2006, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner

That was beautiful. No doubt in my mind, he recognized Him.

Insert crazy comments here.

Unlikely unless through sheer luck the artist who depicted him got Jesus dead on. Not like there were some polaroids lying around for him to work off of. ;)

I always find it funny that Jesus, Mary and all of them are depicted as white. If in fact they did exist they were from the middle-east for Gods sake! No way in hell were they white. :D

bideau

02-14-2006, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Benign Despot
For the record, I'm not trying to change anyones mind, there are many proofs of the existance of a supreme being, but this one just doesn't hold up in my opinion.

Be careful of your wording there ;)

As far as I know, there are no proofs of the existence of a supreme being. There may be theories, suggestions, faith for a supreme being. But there's certainly no scientific proof.

cka203

02-14-2006, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
Unlikely unless through sheer luck the artist who depicted him got Jesus dead on. Not like there were some polaroids lying around for him to work off of. ;)

I always find it funny that Jesus, Mary and all of them are depicted as white. If in fact they did exist they were from the middle-east for Gods sake! No way in hell were they white. :D

:thumb:

Agreed! I think people try to picture Him as they are, but no one really knows what He looked like.

Not that it really matters.

Benign Despot

02-14-2006, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by bideau
Be careful of your wording there ;)

As far as I know, there are no proofs of the existence of a supreme being. There may be theories, suggestions, faith for a supreme being. But there's certainly no scientific proof.

Actually I'm playing around with sylogistic proofs. I took a class in college on Philosophical Thought and Religious belief where we spent a lot of time kicking aroung the "logical proofs" of the existance of god(s).

mikiemo83

02-14-2006, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
I always find it funny that Jesus, Mary and all of them are depicted as white. If in fact they did exist they were from the middle-east for Gods sake! No way in hell were they white. :D and if he was they frown on pictures of the messiah anyway

Costanza

02-14-2006, 01:28 PM

Oh, I know he's not a white guy. Middle Eastern for sure.

Who frowns on His pics?

bideau

02-14-2006, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Benign Despot
Actually I'm playing around with sylogistic proofs. I took a class in college on Philosophical Thought and Religious belief where we spent a lot of time kicking aroung the "logical proofs" of the existance of god(s).

:huh:

I once slept in a Holiday Inn Express :Lecture:

Actually, one of my favorite classes in college was the art of philosophical discussion. My daughter has been taking some theology classes including one titled Non-Belief.

bideau

02-14-2006, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by mikiemo83
and if he was they frown on pictures of the messiah anyway

:spock:

cka203

02-14-2006, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Benign Despot
Actually I'm playing around with sylogistic proofs. I took a class in college on Philosophical Thought and Religious belief where we spent a lot of time kicking aroung the "logical proofs" of the existance of god(s).

IMO, that's where faith comes in. The belief in something intangible, that you can't see/hear/touch/taste/smell/etc. That's why science will never be able to prove God exists. It wasn't meant to be that way. By faith, and faith alone, shall you believe.

After all, if it could be proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, there would be no need for faith.

bideau

02-14-2006, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by cka203
IMO, that's where faith comes in. The belief in something intangible, that you can't see/hear/touch/taste/smell/etc. That's why science will never be able to prove God exists. It wasn't meant to be that way. By faith, and faith alone, shall you believe.

After all, if it could be proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, there would be no need for faith.

Why would that be a bad thing :confused:

mikiemo83

02-14-2006, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by bideau
:spock: yeah I am multi tasking too much today, had a phone to one ear, drafting the changes to another plan while trying to post. I need to look at what I type a little more

what I meant is we all believe in basically the same god with our own twist and if christ in middle eastern, as Alky I think stated, and people are drafting his image, that the musslins would get mad at the images of Prophet Muhamma being in a paper because you are not to idolize him that way.

or something like that

I just labeled a drainage system some funky stuff also.... I need to be a little more attentive at times

cka203

02-14-2006, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by bideau
Why would that be a bad thing :confused:

Well, this is probably waaaay over my head, but in my limited knowledge and understanding, I think it's not so much that it would be a bad thing, rather, I think it would just defeat the purpose.

I mean, I was taught that God wants us to come to Him of our own free will. Now, if His existence could be proven as a scientific fact, there would be no reason for us to believe or to choose to believe... we would just accept it as fact.

As I said, I'm certainly no religious scholar, but that's my layperson's understanding.

Benign Despot

02-14-2006, 01:47 PM

Alas I believe I was born without a faith gene. That coupled with a deep seeded distrust of religion (as distinct from faith or belief) probably means I'm hopeless.

To date I've come to the conclusion that, for me, the nature of creation is "unknowable" so I just enjoy the ride as best I can with a healthy sense of curiosity about where it leads to.

Hawg73

02-14-2006, 01:49 PM

I've been checking this thread out all day and can't really come up with anything worth saying, because it's hard for me to understand my own beliefs, nevermind sharing them in any kind of meaningful manner so I'll take a raincheck.

Having said that, I think this is a great thread with some really moving and intriguing comments and think most everyone has done a good job of listening to and discussing other's thoughts and views about what is a very challenging, potentially troublesome topic.

Good job. Carry on.

One thing I wish is that Oedipus Tex was still around for this one. I can just imagine some of the comments he would have had.

mikiemo83

02-14-2006, 01:51 PM

cka203

02-14-2006, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Hawg73
I've been checking this thread out all day and can't really come up with anything worth saying, because it's hard for me to understand my own beliefs, nevermind sharing them in any kind of meaningful manner so I'll take a raincheck.

Having said that, I think this is a great thread with some really moving and intriguing comments and think most everyone has done a good job of listening to and discussing other's thoughts and views about what is a very challenging, potentially troublesome topic.

Good job. Carry on.

One thing I wish is that Oedipus Tex was still around for this one. I can just imagine some of the comments he would have had.

I agree, Hawg, the Planeteers have done a very good job of discussing a sensitive issue intelligently and respectfully.

I have enjoyed it greatly, since football season is over and there's been little else to talk about (IMO).

I'm sad, however, that you feel you have nothing to add, as I always enjoy reading your posts.

Everyone should feel free to jump in and say whatever they think.

Again, good job everyone! Speaks well of the membership here!

cka203

02-14-2006, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Benign Despot
Alas I believe I was born without a faith gene. That coupled with a deep seeded distrust of religion (as distinct from faith or belief) probably means I'm hopeless.

To date I've come to the conclusion that, for me, the nature of creation is "unknowable" so I just enjoy the ride as best I can with a healthy sense of curiosity about where it leads to.

No one is hopeless.

:)

Although I do think it's harder for some people, especially those who tend to be literal thinkers.

Bacdoc

02-14-2006, 02:45 PM

Wow, great thread.

I've really enjoyed everyone's contributions. As a Mormon or Latter Day Saint, I saw the thread's title and my defenses went up.

It's really nice to hear the opinions of intelligent adults discussing religion. (I can't believe I just wrote that on an internet forum, but then again, this isn't your typical forum).

RoadGrader

02-14-2006, 02:56 PM

Here are some random thoughts I have about this thread and Religion......

1) Jheavner......your cute little bum-bum, be it a Mormon one or not, belongs to the Planet....we tell you when you can leave it, not the other way round. capisci?

2) can you imagine a Religion thread on IndyStar? OMFG!

3) I was raised in a Baptist church from zygote to the age of 13. Church school every Sunday before The Service, you know, a whole morning event. The Church school was taught by the Deacons as well as other motivated, caring members of the congregation. I can remember many lessons of forgiveness, understanding and compassion for your fellow man, not just your church brethren being taught.

Then one day our church's minister announced that he wanted to leave the ministry....his sermon was one of asking permission and forgiveness from the congregation to do so.

Did he want to leave because he was doing "special counselling" with one or more of the member's wives or daughters? Was he closet alkie? Did he want to join The Fab Five on Queer Eye?

No, No, No.

He lost the calling, realized it and knew that his heart would not be able to serve the church and its membership. that's all.

I remember being disappointed by his decision but inspired by his honesty and sincerity. Unfortunately, the congregation's response in the following few weeks astounded me. Complete disdain for the man, no forgiveness, understanding and compassion was shown to him by the very people having the balls to have been preaching the same to me all those years.

I left the church shortly after, much to the disappointment of my mother but she couldn't argue with my thinking about how our church didn't practice what they professed to preach.

Hawg73

02-14-2006, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by cka203
I'm sad, however, that you feel you have nothing to add, as I always enjoy reading your posts.

Everyone should feel free to jump in and say whatever they think.

I actually tried 2 or 3 times and deleted them all before hitting the send button.

Too much crap about me as a fallen Catholic and the history of mankind from hunter/gatherers to intellectual/builders, combined with UFOlogy. I just couldn't stand to read it and neither would anyone else.

I think I'll stick with my new church, the Church of the Presumptuous Assumption.

Thanks, but I'm on the bench for this one. ;)

cka203

02-14-2006, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by RoadGrader
Here are some random thoughts I have about this thread and Religion......

1) Jheavner......your cute little bum-bum, be it a Mormon one or not, belongs to the Planet....we tell you when you can leave it, not the other way round. capisci?

2) can you imagine a Religion thread on IndyStar? OMFG!

3) I was raised in a Baptist church from zygote to the age of 13. Church school every Sunday before The Service, you know, a whole morning event. The Church school was taught by the Deacons as well as other motivated, caring members of the congregation. I can remember many lessons of forgiveness, understanding and compassion for your fellow man, not just your church brethren being taught.

Then one day our church's minister announced that he wanted to leave the ministry....his sermon was one of asking permission and forgiveness from the congregation to do so.

Did he want to leave because he was doing "special counselling" with one or more of the member's wives or daughters? Was he closet alkie? Did he want to join The Fab Five on Queer Eye?

No, No, No.

He lost the calling, realized it and knew that his heart would not be able to serve the church and its membership. that's all.

I remember being disappointed by his decision but inspired by his honesty and sincerity. Unfortunately, the congregation's response in the following few weeks astounded me. Complete disdain for the man, no forgiveness, understanding and compassion was shown to him by the very people having the balls to have been preaching the same to me all those years.

I left the church shortly after, much to the disappointment of my mother but she couldn't argue with my thinking about how our church didn't practice what they professed to preach.

RG - That church, IMO, is/was not filled with true believers, if that was their reaction. Rather, it sounds like the story posted earlier, where the guy wore ragged jeans, etc.

And that is a shame, when people become disallusioned (sp?), as you were/are, and it causes them to think that ALL religion is bad. Honestly, not all churches are like that, and I hope someday (if you choose to do so) (and if you haven't already), you find one filled with true believers, who would recognize and appreciate that what this man did was right.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

They will be punished, for sure. I remember a verse about woe to those who causes the least of one of my children to go astray... (or something to that effect).

I think that applies here.

As for your comment about a thread like this on IndyStar.....

:eek:

No way it would be NEAR as intelligent, thoughtful, respectful, etc., as this one! I shudder to think!

Costanza

02-14-2006, 03:12 PM

Hey man, leave my bum-bum outta this.

And I don't wanna leave, I guess I will have to mind my P & Q's.

This thread is like a breath of fresh air.

Benign Despot

02-14-2006, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Hawg73
I actually tried 2 or 3 times and deleted them all before hitting the send button.

Too much crap about me as a fallen Catholic and the history of mankind from hunter/gatherers to intellectual/builders, combined with UFOlogy. I just couldn't stand to read it and neither would anyone else.

I think I'll stick with my new church, the Church of the Presumptuous Assumption.

Thanks, but I'm on the bench for this one. ;)

CPA - I'm in - where do I send the tithe

Moebius

02-14-2006, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Bacdoc
Wow, great thread.

I've really enjoyed everyone's contributions. As a Mormon or Latter Day Saint, I saw the thread's title and my defenses went up.

It's really nice to hear the opinions of intelligent adults discussing religion. (I can't believe I just wrote that on an internet forum, but then again, this isn't your typical forum).

Another one?!?!?! Man, my uniqueness is going straight down the tubes. Guess I'll have to rely on 6'7" 300lbs now. Sheeesh. :)

Ras

02-14-2006, 04:05 PM

I have no church affiliation right now, even though I am registered at a local catholic church because my wife's kids went to CCD classes.

I still get those monthly envelopes to place in the basket twice a service, but I toss those. One time I got a call from the parish and asked me why I wasn't using the envelopes and I told her that if I went to church (which I don't) and I decided to give a donation (which I don't), I would give cash. She then told me that if I wanted to give cash to continue, but at least deposit the weekly donation envelope so that the parish can take attendance of who comes to church.

I was a loss for words and just hung up. I still get the envelopes -

8 donation envelopes (twice each service)
2 building fund envelopes
1 charities envelope
1 parish maintenance account envelope
1 priest retirement envelope
3 prayer envelopes

Costanza

02-14-2006, 04:32 PM

We get a list and an envelope, obtain them ourselves, and check off what we want the tithe to go to. And it's the layerd paper, so that way you'll have a receit at tax time. (too bad I don't own a house).

We are big tithing payers. Just about everyone does it. We are able to have scriptures and dinners and projects and things like that for free because we are able to fund ourselves thru the tithe. It also goes for the Missionary housing and bills and stuff.

Hawg73

02-14-2006, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
We get a list and an envelope, obtain them ourselves, and check off what we want the tithe to go to. And it's the layerd paper, so that way you'll have a receit at tax time. (too bad I don't own a house).

We are big tithing payers. Just about everyone does it. We are able to have scriptures and dinners and projects and things like that for free because we are able to fund ourselves thru the tithe. It also goes for the Missionary housing and bills and stuff.

Tithing is a pretty interesting topic to me, because my understanding is that it is something like at least 10% of everything you earn. Is that true?

If so, I don't know how it could possibly be enforced/managed with the amount of poor folks, etc. -- even if it is a relatively small number compared to the non-Mormons, which is also what I hear.

And is there a lot of controversy about who/what is getting the tithe cash in the Mormon community?

I can imagine it must be hard to give up that much cash every year.

Mark_Henderson

02-14-2006, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
We get a list and an envelope, obtain them ourselves, and check off what we want the tithe to go to. And it's the layerd paper, so that way you'll have a receit at tax time. (too bad I don't own a house).

We are big tithing payers. Just about everyone does it. We are able to have scriptures and dinners and projects and things like that for free because we are able to fund ourselves thru the tithe. It also goes for the Missionary housing and bills and stuff.

I'm just curious, not all judgemental - does this mean that you can deduct it from your taxes if you have people over for dinner to discuss scripture, or if you donate money to pay people's expenses for proselytizing?

dchester

02-14-2006, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Hawg73
Tithing is a pretty interesting topic to me, because my understanding is that it is something like at least 10% of everything you earn. Is that true? That's what you are suppose to give, but I'll admit that I don't give anywhere near that much to the church.

I remember once (a long time back) asking the minister about if the 10% was before or after taxes. The way his eyes glazed over was priceless.
:D
________
buy vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/)

Moebius

02-14-2006, 09:23 PM

The 10% thing is biblical I believe. Something I've never been good with, in part as the wife's not a member, and I don't think that'd be fair to her.

It's kinda funny, when my brother-in-law and sister were early in their marriage, and struggling to survive, he being the good little former missionary was always insistent on paying tithing. Even if they didn't have enough to pay rent, or car, or whatever, he'd pay that tithing. I always thought that a bit silly, but somehow (divine intervention maybe) things always worked out perfectly for them. He'd get an unexpected raise, or a bonus, or something like that right in the nick of time.

Now, they're pretty financially well off, have a nice huge house, and my wife has averaged around a car a year. Granted that's in part that he manages to find deals on cars where he always sells them for more than he paid... always. Still, right now she has a Cherokee, two Boxters (one needing some repair parts) and an Audi TT. It's sad. She'll end up selling 3 of the four, then the fourth within a year and buy something new.

Costanza

02-15-2006, 12:19 AM

We pretty much live paycheck to paycheck. My husband makes great money, but we bought a lot of nice stuff and now are regretting it when the bill comes.

Our tithing is about 100 a week, depending on if he works more than 40 hours or not. It seems like a stretch, but it is amazing how it all comes together. It is an instant blessing to do so. Those who don't beleive will never experience it and subsequently never understand it.

I really don't trip off of things, my life is pretty laid back. It always works out for us, no matter what. I know He will come through. It's nice not having any stress.

10 percent is what the Bible says.

As per tax deductions, I have no clue. I would think so, though.

No controversy what so ever. I think we come off so creepy or robotic because everything seems too perfect. Everyone is pretty much a straight shooter in my Church. I was so amazed as to how peaceful everyone is. These are people that actually live by the word of their Gospel. We don't praise God and then go out to the bar and bring some unknown home, or lust after others or do things that are generally not good for you. I think "goody-two shoes" is what a lot are labeled, but most are just good people that aren't trying to hurt anyone else and follow the rules of God.

Webslinger

02-15-2006, 12:58 AM

Wow! Truly great thread about a generally contentious topic. You have all handled this with care and sensitivity. Stuff like this is why PP is my favorite website. Hats off to all involved.

I was raised Catholic, altar boy back when you had to still learn the mass in Latin. Intervening years and life experience hacaused me to migrate to a Toaist point of view. But to deny my inherently Christian values would be as pointless as denying the blue in my eyes. Can't get past all the organized stuff though and decry the labeling, castigations and Hellfire. Believe in a kinder, gentler more loving view and hope for the opportunity for all to find peace, love and happiness.

Wandering Athol

02-15-2006, 01:45 AM

I've been avoiding this thread the past few days...and was openly cringing when I clicked on this 158-post potential-quasi-codex entitled "Mormon Scum!", thinking perhaps a literary H-bomb had just gone off within the Planet, and by this time, perhaps there were no surviving combatants.

Wow, was I off the mark. Well done folks...but what should have I expected? :clap:

With Kubrick-inspired, Slim Pickens-falling-to-earth exuberance, I'll join in:

I have a very simple philosophy: the Golden Rule. Make a continuous effort to gain as much wisdom as possible to interpret the Rule as best you can, and let the cards fall where they may.

I'm a believer in the long-run effects of karma. I really have no idea what religious denomination that makes me (anyone with a Reader's Digest version of the multiple theologies available to someone in Virginia, please feel free to post a link). I am not a church-goer, nor am I sure I have any faith that religion is anything more than 1) a vain attempt to answer mans' eternal question, "Why?", when quite simply, there might not be an answer, and 2) an attempt to control the masses towards civility (amongst other lesser goals) via fear of the cosmic unknown by the cognoscenti, or worse tyrants, of any particular era.

I'm open to any debate on the issue, and who knows, I could change my mind. But, while I'm not a nihilist, I am an extreme skeptic of anything organized by man.

cka203

02-15-2006, 06:30 AM

I see this thread is still alive and kicking... Cool!

With regards to tithing...

IMO, the Bible does state 10% of what you've been given should go back into the church, for purposes of supporting God's work (this includes things like supporting the pastor, maintaining the building, missionaries, etc.). I believe you are also encouraged to give more (tithes and offerings). The premise is, if you trust in God and do His will, He will provide for all your needs.

Personally, I try to tithe, but it doesn't all go to the church. I have some charities I give to, or I will help someone in need, things like that, and I believe that is also God's work and thus qualifies as "tithing". I'm not rich, by any means, but I do live comfortably and have all I need (and more).

Again, it's faith that's behind it all... if you trust God, and not just rely on your own thinking, He will bless you and provide for your needs.

I remember years ago, when I was still young in the faith and had just recently divorced. I had a low-paying job, tons of bills, and seemingly no way to make ends meet. The outgo was greater than the income. I struggled with tithing... it was very tempting to just throw up my hands and say there's just no way! But tithe I did, and like Moebius said above, something would always happen to help me out. An unexpected gift, a raise at work, whatever... I made it through those rough times, and while I may not have had a lot of material possessions, I had all I needed.

It is interesting how that works.....

Hawg73

02-15-2006, 07:30 AM

I mentioned that I was impressed with Mormonism for a couple of reasons and the fact that tithing seems to be something that is accepted without complaint is also very impressive.

My own donations to our local Catholic Church last year totaled a big, fat donut hole due to the fact that I won't set foot in there again and I don't feel the least bad about it no matter how much guilt they pounded into my head when I was a kid.

Not to say that I don't give to charity, but I don't feel like the Vatican really needs my cash to survive and haven't found another religion that works.

I could use some kind of spiritual renaissance. That I'll admit, but since Tom and Katie are splitsville now I don't think Scientology is an option.

Another thing that I like about Mormonism is that they seem to have a philosophy of working/studying hard and then playing hard that doesn't involve a culture of boozing and drugs. At least, not a widespread one.

For a poorly informed outsider it seems like they have a heavy emphasis on family, community action and clean living and that's not a bad deal.

Combine that with the missions and they seem a lot more dedicated and content about it than just about anyone I personally know that was raised a Catholic, not that many Catholics aren't both.

I just haven't happened to run across a whole lot of them.

Anyone know anything about snake handling religions? I need to look into that one.

BizarroAnnihilus

02-15-2006, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by Wandering Athol
I have a very simple philosophy: the Golden Rule. Make a continuous effort to gain as much wisdom as possible to interpret the Rule as best you can, and let the cards fall where they may.

I'm a believer in the long-run effects of karma. I really have no idea what religious denomination that makes me

Well, belief in Karma would mean that you'd fit in with the Buddhists (and probably some others).....but then you'd have to believe in reincarnation if you were going to be a Buddhist.

If you want Cliff Notes version of religion, you should check out the PBS program by Joseph Campbell: The Power of Myth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005MEVQ?v=glance) . He's also got several lectures on tape and a couple of other TV series that are well worth checking out. Very interesting stuff.

BizarroAnnihilus

02-15-2006, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by Hawg73
I could use some kind of spiritual renaissance. That I'll admit, but since Tom and Katie are splitsville now I don't think Scientology is an option.

Tom and Katie broke up? Where has Annihilus been?

Annihilus was curious about Scientology about 2 years ago and thought he'd check it out. Keep in mind that he really knew next to nothing about it, so didn't know much other than a lot of people think that Scientologists are 'weird'.

So he bought a couple of books: 'Dianetics' (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/088404632X/sr=8-2/qid=1140011280/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-0602729-3831310?%5Fencoding=UTF8) and 'What is Scientology?' (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573181226/sr=8-1/qid=1140011280/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-0602729-3831310?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

Now let Annihilus start by saying that in and of themselves, these books seemed relatively harmless, if not new-ageish. They do a decent job of explaining what the movement is about.....though they leave some things out that you need to find via 'other avenues' (see below).

Then, he decided that there must be some stuff around that delved into the 'weirdness' of the Scientology movement.

And he was right. After checking out the 'Operation Clambake' (http://www.xenu.net/) website, and specifically this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu) on Wikipedia, he wasn't as comfortable studying up as he had been prior to finding these pages. In fact, he hasn't read much else about it since then.

This is some pretty bizarro stuff (No offense to any Scientologists out there). In fact, Annihilus would be very interested to talk with any if you're floating about reading this thread. Throw out your thoughts!

mikiemo83

02-15-2006, 08:13 AM

born and raised catholic, with my ccd classes taught by either my mother or one of her friends, finally my last year getting ready for confirmation, I missed a few classes and was asked why, when I truthfully answered the question I was kicked out of CCD and had to wait a year to get confirmed.

the reason was the priest seemed to dislike my long hair, earrings and leather jacket back in 1980. We constantly clashed but because of who my teachers were I had to know the lesson as I was constantly asked to answer, this pissed the priest off and I would add a little extra info about the saint I was questioned on and things like that - as I said I came from a very religious home and am the black sheep because I never went to the born again stuff that the rest were into, it was left to me to choose.

Well I was asked why I refused to be on time or missed classes and basically why I didn't conform to his rule. I asked him if he wanted the truth, he said yes so told him I what I thought of him and his self righteousness, and after assuring me my answer would be accepted he booted my ass out.

that was my first reason to leave.

I have since tried to go back and just don't seem to pick the correct church I guess. when my son was born, I wanted him christened, washed of original sin and was refused by 3 churches.

I was married in vegas because my mom was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and I refused to have my wedding a wake for my mom - strike one they said, my wife was previously married and divorced so the church frowned on that - strike two, and I was not a regular mass attendee and based on that my child would not be a good candiate for being raised in the catholic church. Luckily my wife was the one pushing for the this and I was not the one on the phone or I would have driven to the church and explained a few things to the asshole.

Finally I called the church my daughter's took place and told the priest my story, he remembered my and explained that everything that I went through was BS and that if I wanted to drive to the church at that moment he would take care of the situation, we went the next time he had scheduled and my son was finally Christened at 5 months old.

I have the most problem though with the sexual offenses to Children, including a kid I knew who ended up killing himself (we found out later this was the reason), this made me question how these so called holy men work.

that is why I don't go to church any more, I do think about it at times only because of that one good priest I found to christen my son.

cka203

02-15-2006, 08:34 AM

Mikie - I look at your story much as I did RG's.....

I'm saddened that this experience happened to you, and I feel it's another example of "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch".

This priest and church, IMO, did you (and the faith) a disservice.

However, that doesn't mean ALL churches and priests are cut from the same cloth, as you know.

Give it another shot somewhere else - somewhere you feel comfortable, and with parishioners and priests you like and trust. Could make a world of difference!

JMO

Benign Despot

02-15-2006, 08:45 AM

cka I don't think you've ever been a Catholic.

The ratio of sanctimonious assholes to honest hardworking holy men is at least 5-1. The ratio increases the higher up in the hierarchy you go, and it has become apparent in the last 5 years that if a good preist stands up to the hierarchy he'll be whacked faster than you can say "sabatical".

I haven't tried it out, but I've been told that if you want to be as close to Catholic as you can go with less than half the guilt you should try the Episcopalians.

mikiemo83

02-15-2006, 08:52 AM

cka, my wife tried 3 churches and all 3 said no, I tried the one I knew would. I also tried to get married in the catholic church after a promise I made to my mom but I found out we can't because my wife was married before and divorced, yeah that evil word in the church.

She got married young and realized quickly it was a mistake but stayed in the situation until her step daughter graduated and could move out of the house to college about 2 1/2 years later. The ex-husband was from a very affluent family and my wife asked for one thing in the divorce - her name back, nothing else, the judge called her crazy in the court room, I think she was smart, but because she stayed after finding out the marriage was wrong is why she could not get it annulled, so for the good of a girl going through the hardest time of her life 16 y.o. the church says no.

My wife was the 1st mother figure in the girls life, her mother had died when she was very young.

I agree with trying a different church and I know the one I would, but I just can't see it. I like knowing I am a christian because of acts not affiliation. I know enough of the bible and keep thinking about reading it again, this time straight through - but they have no pictures.

I think it is amazing the way this thread has kept its head above water and not sunk to a political battle.

Bacdoc

02-15-2006, 09:01 AM

IMO you'll find in every church, people who do not live up to the things that they preach or even believe. Many kind things have been said about my faith in this thread (Mormon), and they have been true. Having said that, we have our fair share of superficial and egotistic fools putting on a good show.

Of course the child molestation thing being one of the exceptions ("But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea". Matthew 18:6) with any faith you have to accept that imperfect people are running, and worshiping in them.

The beautiful thing about the atonement of Jesus Christ is that He is our only judge. He is the only one that can see into our hearts, knows our thoughts, and knows our intentions. I inherited a terrible habit from my father growing up. I saw things as black and white, right or wrong. Living that type of a life is way too hard, because there are all kinds of shades of gray. It took until I had made a few mistakes myself before I realized that I had been judgeing people way too harshly. More harshly than I could possibly judge myself.

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great acommandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 22: 37-39.

Sorry to get all "scriptorial" on you. But I think even church going folk forget this commandment way too often. We are not the judges of other people. We are commanded to love others, and to give charity to them whenever possible and needed. If anything, we should love all the more those who have done wrong and are seriously repenting of those things.

After some of the things I've done in my life, I try my best not to come down on people too hard for being less than what I've expected. Granted this a general rule, and may not apply to some of the jerks that have been discussed in this thread. ;)

I'll get off my soapbox now :rolleyes:

Moebius

02-15-2006, 09:16 AM

Can one of you Catholic types explain the CCD classes a bit? Last I knew CCD was the image chip in a digital camera, but I've heard a few references to it here and in recent conversations with co-workers.

I'm assuming it has to do with either confirmation of first communion, but not really sure.

mikiemo83

02-15-2006, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Moebius
Can one of you Catholic types explain the CCD classes a bit? Last I knew CCD was the image chip in a digital camera, but I've heard a few references to it here and in recent conversations with co-workers.

I'm assuming it has to do with either confirmation of first communion, but not really sure. hour long classes during the school year to teach you the basics for communion and then later confirmation, the length varies from church to church, when I was a kid the 2 different churches in town you went until 10th grade in one, 8th in the other. they also had a cyo - catholic youth organization that you could join.

typically it was taught by mothers after school, either in their house or at the church. I think now some churches have them right after a certain mass so they know you went - at least both my brothers 2 different church do it this way.

bideau

02-15-2006, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Bacdoc
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great acommandment.

As an atheist, this commandment doesn't apply to me. Can't love something I don't believe exists. But, this commandment can be applied across alot of denominations.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 22: 37-39.

This is, IMO, a universal commandment, regardless of faith or non-faith. It's what I call a basic rule of humanity. Unfortunately, it's one that's too often ignored.

Sorry to get all "scriptorial" on you. But I think even church going folk forget this commandment way too often. We are not the judges of other people. We are commanded to love others, and to give charity to them whenever possible and needed. If anything, we should love all the more those who have done wrong and are seriously repenting of those things.

After some of the things I've done in my life, I try my best not to come down on people too hard for being less than what I've expected. Granted this a general rule, and may not apply to some of the jerks that have been discussed in this thread.

;)

I'll get off my soapbox now :rolleyes:

I like the italicized part of your post. If only more people would follow it.

This is the root cause of so much animosity among people of various beliefs. People want to impose their moralities and religious based rules on society in general. And that causes others to push back. Today's world is a small and diverse one.

The "hate the sin, love the sinner" phrase has always sent me into a rage. It is not up to someone else to label my sin because in my belief/non-belief, I may very well have a different definition of sin. Someone may feel that way, but I would much prefer that they keep that opinion to themselves. I've always felt that people should worry about keeing their own house in order and be secure in their own beliefs. And if someone is secure in their belief, they can be reassurred that they will be rewarded according to that belief.

My mother always tells me that she's praying for me. But that doesn't bother me because I know it's said out of love, not out of judgement. Besides, on the small chance that I'm wrong, I'll need a good spokeswoman for me. And my mother can be very persuasive :p

BizarroAnnihilus

02-15-2006, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by bideau
My mother always tells me that she's praying for me. But that doesn't bother me because I know it's said out of love, not out of judgement. Besides, on the small chance that I'm wrong, I'll need a good spokeswoman for me. And my mother can be very persuasive :p

Holy Crow, if that doesn't sound familar to Annihilus, then nothing does. Maybe our folks should get together sometime.

If praying for someone actually works, we should end up in pretty good shape. :)

Hawg73

02-15-2006, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Moebius
Can one of you Catholic types explain the CCD classes a bit? Last I knew CCD was the image chip in a digital camera, but I've heard a few references to it here and in recent conversations with co-workers.

I'm assuming it has to do with either confirmation of first communion, but not really sure.

Mikey explained it pretty well, it is basically a continuing Ed type of class that teaches Catholic doctrine to kids who may or may not attend a parochial school.

I guarantee you that if you ask any tough questions in one of those classrooms you'll get hit with "It's a mystery" so fast it'll make your head spin.

Another strange Catholic ritual is the boot camp the Church runs for people about to be married called pre-caina (sp?).

That's where all good Catholics learn about sexuality and finances from a guy who has a fixed income and took a vow of celibacy. No wonder we're screwed up.

Let's put it to you this way. During my pre-caina I actually had to take a written exam where one of the questions (no joke) was "Do you think your Mother enjoyed sex?".

I answered it: "I'm not sure if my Mother ever had sex."

No comment from the padre about that answer.

BizarroAnnihilus

02-15-2006, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Hawg73
Let's put it to you this way. During my pre-caina I actually had to take a written exam where one of the questions (no joke) was "Do you think your Mother enjoyed sex?".

I answered it: "I'm not sure if my Mother ever had sex."

No comment from the padre about that answer.

:LOL: ROFL

Ya darn troublemaker. Not a bad answer for that question, though.

Benign Despot

02-15-2006, 10:08 AM

One of my buddies was asked "have you had pre-marital sex"

n.b. this was a layperson, not a priest.

His answer was "would you buy a car without test driving it first?"

Hawg73

02-15-2006, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Annihilus
:LOL: ROFL

Ya darn troublemaker. Not a bad answer for that question, though.

I'm just happy that you figured out that Scientology is a huge, criminal scam before I was forced to lead a Planet intervention to deprogram you.

:D

I'm not surprised either that you were curious about it or that you were smart enough to see through their baloney.

BTW, you might be interested to know that both books you read have been on the best seller lists for the past 20 years because members of the cult are encouraged to buy the books and mail them back to headquarters untouched so they can recycle them and put them back on the shelves.

The same book is being purchased over and over again to make it look good.

It sounds crazy, but that is what they do.

Benign Despot

02-15-2006, 10:12 AM

*hope I'm not offending anyone here*

I'm firmly convinced that L. Ron Hubbard conceived Scientology as a tax dodge, then folks started sending in money and he was like...

"Yeah, this is really what happened, that's the ticket"

BizarroAnnihilus

02-15-2006, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Benign Despot
*hope I'm not offending anyone here*

I'm firmly convinced that L. Ron Hubbard conceived Scientology as a tax dodge, then folks started sending in money and he was like...

"Yeah, this is really what happened, that's the ticket"

You're right (at least according to many Internet based sources).

Sam Merwin, then the editor of the Thrilling SF magazines: quoted in Bare Faced Messiah p.133 from 1986 interview. Winter of 1946/47.

"Around this time he was invited to address a science fiction group in Newark hosted by the writer, Sam Moskowitz. `Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous,' he told the meeting. `If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way to do it would be start his own religion.'

TrueBeliever

02-15-2006, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by Benign Despot
One of my buddies was asked "have you had pre-marital sex"

n.b. this was a layperson, not a priest.

His answer was "would you buy a car without test driving it first?"

Shortly after I broke up with my first serious college girlfriend, I bought a book titled Are You the One For Me? by a well-known relationship expert and psychologist. I read it in the hope that I would never get lured into another love trap with a psycho hose-beast like the one I had just left.

One thing intrigued me towards the end - the author encouraged (and all but insisted on) couples having sex before they got married. Her reason was that she met a couple that had waited until they were married only to find out that physically they were completely incompatible - the husband was much bigger than his wife down there, and it was impossible for them to have sex without the wife getting very painfully bruised. They ultimately divorced.

Further, I was listening to NPR's Fresh Air one day last year and heard an interview with the founder of eHarmony.com, whatever his name is, and he said that an unfortunate side effect of Christianity is that a number of Christian couples rush into marriage because they're sex-starved; then they realize that they aren't as good with their new spouse as they thought they were. He blamed this factor for the fact that the divorce rate among Christians being as high or higher (I can't remember anymore) than non-Christians.

Sexual compatability is a vital factor in making a happy marriage. A good friend of mine who has the sex drive of a rabid bull married his high school sweetheart only to discover that she's one of those woman that just doesn't enjoy sex and doesn't get anything out of it. He was frustrated for a while and they were seriously considering divorce when she discovered she was pregnant with my godson. Now they have two kids and are still together, but his number one complaint about her is how infrequently they do the deed.

I understand why it is considered immoral to have premarital sex, and I must admit I still have a tendency to look down upon people I perceive as promiscuous. However, we are sexual beings and you gotta release that tension somehow.

JLC

02-15-2006, 10:46 AM

Wow. As has been mentioned several times by others, what a breath of fresh air!

For those who call themselves Christians (of which I am one), the urge to judge others is directly addressed by Jesus himself: "Do not judge, or you will be judged - "in spades." (my words) We're in sales, not management. Decisions about who goes where and why are made at a higher level.

The best thing I could say about this thread is that, from what I've read and know about the Son of God, he would be perfectly at home in the middle of this thread, comfortable with the thoughts, the people, even - or especially - the doubts.

It's good to remember that he went out of his way to hang out with ordinary people in ordinary places, took shots at the religious establishment at ever opportunity, finally irritating them to the point where they had him killed.

I doubt he feels much differently today.
I apologize if this sounds preachy.

Moebius

02-15-2006, 11:18 AM

I make it a point not to judge anyone, except those people who aren't me. >)

cka203

02-15-2006, 11:22 AM

Wow - I was gone for a while, and there's so many responses I'd like to reply to! I'll give it a go, and hope I don't miss any... ;)

cka I don't think you've ever been a Catholic.

No, I haven't; although I do have many Catholic friends. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Catholics think they are the only ones who will go to Heaven? If so, given the general consensus of the board on this, I'm surprised so many of you are Catholic (or were at least raised that way).

I think it is amazing the way this thread has kept its head above water and not sunk to a political battle.

I agree! And I'm really glad! Also Mikie, I appreciated your other comments in your post. Again, I think it boils down to the Catholic church, and their beliefs about certain things (like divorce, contraception, etc.). I don't happen to agree with them... perhaps you should try a nice Baptist church? >)

The "hate the sin, love the sinner" phrase has always sent me into a rage.

Bid - If I offended you, I'm sorry. But I think what Jesus meant by this was, it is not right for us to "hate" someone because we perceive them to be sinners, or because we perceive something they do to be sin. Rather, I think the intent was to show that we should love everyone, regardless of how we perceive them to be, and regardless of their actions. If they do something we think is wrong, we should love them and pray for them - not judge them or chide them. After all, ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Even the saved continue to sin - none will be perfect until we reach Heaven.

Hawg - Glad to see you've come off the bench to join us in this thread! :)

Everyone else - So glad to see everyone's opinions and beliefs! Very interesting reading!

That's all I can remember, for now... have to see if I've missed anything! ;)

JLC

02-15-2006, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Moebius
I make it a point not to judge anyone, except those people who aren't me. >)

:LOL: :LOL:

I've found that judging myself honestly is about as much as I can handle! Others will just have to judge themselves.

dchester

02-15-2006, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by JLC
:LOL: :LOL:

I've found that judging myself honestly is about as much as I can handle! Others will just have to judge themselves. An observation I've made over the years is that people seem to be much more understanding of their own sins than they are of anyone else's.
________
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cka203

02-15-2006, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by dchester
An observation I've made over the years is that people seem to be much more understanding of their own sins than they are of anyone else's.

True - Which is why Jesus said (something like this)...

It's easier to see the splinter in another's eye than to see the board in one's own.

Moebius

02-15-2006, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by cka203
True - Which is why Jesus said (something like this)...

It's easier to see the splinter in another's eye than to see the board in one's own.

Not sure I understand this... I see the board on my monitor, not in my eye.

bideau

02-15-2006, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by cka203
Bid - If I offended you, I'm sorry. But I think what Jesus meant by this was, it is not right for us to "hate" someone because we perceive them to be sinners, or because we perceive something they do to be sin. Rather, I think the intent was to show that we should love everyone, regardless of how we perceive them to be, and regardless of their actions. If they do something we think is wrong, we should love them and pray for them - not judge them or chide them. After all, ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Even the saved continue to sin - none will be perfect until we reach Heaven.

C'mon girl, stop being so damned polite :D

No, you nor anyone else in this thread has offended anyone. What I meant is that the phrase is often thrown around in a derogatory, judgmental manner. Fairly ironic, IMHO. The intent of the phrase is a good one. But it's best practiced when kept to yourself. Very often, a person will use the phrase directly at someone and, by doing so, instantly pass judgement on them. And, while there are sins that everyone agrees on (murder, rape, stealing, etc), there are many areas that are gray and based on one's core beliefs.

cka203

02-15-2006, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by bideau
C'mon girl, stop being so damned polite :D

:LOL: ROFL

Can't help it... Hoosier Hospitality... you know... ;)

Claremonster

02-15-2006, 12:04 PM

I was born a Catholic - most of us of French-Canadien/American Indian Descent tend to be Catholic, because those darn french guys were so good at converting us heathens :D

However, when I was younger I always had this feeling that something was wrong. Maybe it was how beautiful the church was, all the money floating around, etc... and I ended up deciding, on my own, that I didn't want to be Catholic and I ended up joining a Baptist church. It felt "right". Simple little white church, without all the extravagence and such and I was happy. Attended that church from about 8 years old until I was 16.

That's when the trouble began. I attended that church every sunday. Easter Services, Christmas Sevices, was president of the Baptist Youth Fellowship group, you name it, I particpated. Since I was an "Ancient History" buff, I ended up teaching the Biblical History portion of Sunday School. Basically, teaching about the geography and history of the Holy Lands.

However, when I was 16 the old reverend that had been there for decades retired, and we got some new young guy in, who seemed to have a problem with me. Perhaps it was my long hair, perhaps it was that I was a little bit darker than the rest, perhaps it was that I dressed poorly (not really my choice). I don't know, but he decided he didn't think I "fit in" there. :banghead:

Anyway, it kinda soured me on the whole "organized religion" thing. So, now I follow the spiritual path of my ancestors, and I'm happy - it's an individual thing.

I don't need any person or group between me and the Creator. One on one. Makes sense to me. I'm sure He hears my prayers anyway. :cool:

But I won't criticize anyone else for choosing another different path. Whatever works for ya, that's your business :D

Claremonster

02-15-2006, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by dchester
An observation I've made over the years is that people seem to be much more understanding of their own sins than they are of anyone else's.

I remember hearing a priest say once, in response to his excellent hearing... "People will shout the sins of others from the rooftops, but when it comes to their own, they whisper..."

o:-)

Hawg73

02-15-2006, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Claremonster
Anyway, it kinda soured me on the whole "organized religion" thing. So, now I follow the spiritual path of my ancestors, and I'm happy - it's an individual thing.

Interesting.

Most of what I know about Native American beliefs comes from being a big fan of Larry McMurtry's books and you can tell he has a lot of respect for those beliefs in the way he uses his words to explain his Indian characters' thoughts and actions.

Not all of it made sense to me, but one that got to me was how when members of some tribes figured that it was time to die, they were cool with that because they knew that this life is just a temporary plain of existence and they would begin singing a "death song" that might last for days in which they would sing about all of the people they knew and all that they had seen in this life in order to begin the process of transitioning over.

Not a bad way to go in my eyes.

If I ever do end up singing my own death song I hope I don't spend too much time singing about cheese curls and Leave it to Beaver reruns and instead stick to stuff about the people that I loved and the beautiful things I had experienced and so forth.

Claremonster

02-15-2006, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Hawg73

If I ever do end up singing my own death song I hope I don't spend too much time singing about cheese curls and Leave it to Beaver reruns and instead stick to stuff about the people that I loved and the beautiful things I had experienced and so forth.

Cheese Curls and Leave it to Beaver? LOL... I hope that's not what I end up with, either... ;)

One thing that really sucks, though, is that there are all these New Agers out there that take American Indian spiritual stuff, and blend it. You end up with the belief systems of various nations all blended into one big mess, and then as if that wasn't bad enough, they go out and charge people for it, write books about it, and end up confusing people as to what it really is. Then, as if it isn't bad enough, they then have the gall to tell real indians how it's supposed to be done, etc... grrrr....

Thats really about the only thing I am REALLY intolerant of, when it comes to Religions - spiritual theft, and commercialization. I can get REALLY riled up over it.

:D

mgoblue101415

02-15-2006, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by cka203
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Catholics think they are the only ones who will go to Heaven?

No, not at all. We believe the same as most other Christian religions... Accept Jesus as your savior, confess your sins and you're in.

The biggest difference really is the whole purgatory thing, which I never bought into. There are no second chances after death.

If so, given the general consensus of the board on this, I'm surprised so many of you are Catholic (or were at least raised that way).

Hmm.... Patriots MB.... Most people from the Boston area.... Boston having the 2nd highest population of Catholics in the US. I'd say the odds are that there would be quite a few around here. ;)

Technically, I'm not Catholic. I was babtized in a Catholic church, and that is the church that I attended most, but I was never confirmed. Before we moved here I was going to take the classes at the Catholic church I was attending but, well, we moved. Since we've lived here I've checked out a couple of the Catholic churches, but didn't feel good about either one. There is one that I want to check out but haven't gotten around to it yet. As soon as I do find a church I like though I will go through the classes.

My husband is Missouri Synod Lutheran ( Catholic Lite ) and we attend his church weekly.

Growing up we really didn't go to church. My mother, even though she had me babtized Catholic, had left the Catholic church when she got married. My father wasn't Catholic, had actually never even been babtized, and the Church refused to marry them. When I was in probably 1st or 2nd grade my mother started attending a United Church of Christ, and we went to Sunday school there, but that only lasted for about a year.

In junior high I started going to church with friends. Did that through high school as well. Babtist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic.... I ended up gravitating towards the Catholic church ( must be the Irish in me ;) ) so that was the church I actually started attending towards the end of high school up until I met my husband, at which point I started to attend his church as well.

I honestly think more people should experience different religions and make their own choices rather than just following what they were raised with. How will you ever know what is best for you if you've only be exposed to one choice?

A few years ago I actually got interested in Buddhism. Not that I started practicing it, but it just intrigued me so I started to study it. Honestly, it's really not all that different than most Christian religions. Well, obviously there's the Christ factor, but I have sort of a bizarre take on that, which wouldn't make it really that different. But if I were to ever consider a religion other than Catholicism it would be Buddhism. :shrug:

RoadGrader

02-15-2006, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9
So my doorbell just rang and my dog Shadow starts barking like a mofo (good girl). I go open it and there they are with their white shirts, backpacks, and name tags. I barely opened the door halfway and recognize em for what they are and blurt out "Mormons, forget it, see ya" and start closing the door when one of em asks "do you know anyone in the neighborhood who can use an uplifting message maybe?" This hits me with the kind of laughter that shoots soda out your nose. Somehow I managed to get out "no" as I closed the door but I'm sure that wont stop em.

Was that mean? Is it just me or is anyone else struck by the fact that this thread was originally started by Alcoholic9™® as a funny (IMO) anecdote poking fun at a religion which has turned into a very thoughtful and meaningful one full of very personal responses by our membership?

This thread may be Oedipus Tex Classic Thread Forum material before all is said and done.

thanks Alcoholic9™® :toast:

Undertaker #59

02-15-2006, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by RoadGrader
This thread may be Oedipus Tex Classic Thread Forum material before all is said and done.

Oh absolutely. I thought so yesterday. This thread speaks very well of the membership here, and I am sure there will be more threads bound for the Classics forum before long.

mikiemo83

02-15-2006, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by RoadGrader
Is it just me or is anyone else struck by the fact that this thread was originally started by Alcoholic9™® as a funny (IMO) anecdote poking fun at a religion which has turned into a very thoughtful and meaningful one full of very personal responses by our membership? that would be based on the original response by the mormon followers here on the planet, they didn't get all defensive, they just stated their opinions without taking offense.

dchester

02-15-2006, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by RoadGrader
Is it just me or is anyone else struck by the fact that this thread was originally started by Alcoholic9?? as a funny (IMO) anecdote poking fun at a religion which has turned into a very thoughtful and meaningful one full of very personal responses by our membership? I think it's just you.

:D
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RoadGrader

02-15-2006, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by mikiemo83
that would be based on the original response by the mormon followers here on the planet, they didn't get all defensive, they just stated their opinions without taking offense. jeez, don't encourage 'em mikie.......next thing you know they'll be hitting on you and me to grab our RealDolls and FedEx them to some place in Utah or something.
:shake: ( Copyright 2005 mgoblue™® )

mikiemo83

02-15-2006, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by RoadGrader
jeez, don't encourage 'em mikie.......next thing you know they'll be hitting on you and me to grab our RealDolls and FedEx them to some place in Utah or something. :shake: yeah but if I'm a mormon I can have 2 or more real dolls :D

cka203

02-15-2006, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Undertaker #59
Oh absolutely. I thought so yesterday. This thread speaks very well of the membership here, and I am sure there will be more threads bound for the Classics forum before long.

Yeah, RG and UT - I did think it was odd/funny that what started out as a joke has turned into a pretty serious discussion on a potentially offensive/combative thread. Course, it's taken some twists and turns along the way, and just when I thought maybe the last post was a threadkiller, along comes someone else with more thought-provoking response to keep it alive.

Definitely a classic contender!

This board is definitely unique, and not only in membership.

:thumb:

TrueBeliever

02-15-2006, 01:51 PM

I think it also shows considerable respect and restraint that it won't have to be moved into the Political Playground, which is where I figured it was headed at first.

Ras

02-15-2006, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by cka203
:LOL: ROFL

Can't help it... Hoosier Hospitality... you know... ;)
That explains why the Colts give away so many playoff games. Thanks for the clarification!

bideau

02-15-2006, 01:53 PM

cka203

02-15-2006, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by TrueBeliever
I think it also shows considerable respect and restraint that it won't have to be moved into the Political Playground, which is where I figured it was headed at first.

Amen

(pun intended)

:D

cka203

02-15-2006, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Ras-Al-Ghul
That explains why the Colts give away so many playoff games. Thanks for the clarification!

Dang, why didn't I think of that? :banghead:

;)

Alcoholic9*

02-15-2006, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by Undertaker #59
Oh absolutely. I thought so yesterday. This thread speaks very well of the membership here, and I am sure there will be more threads bound for the Classics forum before long.

Nice! :thumb:

A thread I started may end up in the classics forum? I wonder if it would have gotten so big without the "Mormon Scum" title. People who haven't read it must think we're in here damning eachother to Hell and threatening to have our God(s) smite down one another. ROFL

mikiemo83

02-15-2006, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by bideau
Yeah, who woulda thunk it....polite Mormons :blink: better people than I, I question to much stuff to truly be able to follow a particular religion. I guess I'm a regular doubting Thomas when it comes to this kind of response from someone who feels that strongly about their religion.

when I get together with some of my over protective catholic acquintences, it rarely goes this smoothly with them when I tell them I question a, b, and c. so yeah I am surprised at the politeness shown based on the title of the thread.

Moebius

02-15-2006, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by RoadGrader
Is it just me or is anyone else struck by the fact that this thread was originally started by Alcoholic9™® as a funny (IMO) anecdote poking fun at a religion which has turned into a very thoughtful and meaningful one full of very personal responses by our membership?

This thread may be Oedipus Tex Classic Thread Forum material before all is said and done.

thanks Alcoholic9™® :toast:

I had the same thought earlier, but didn't say anything. :)

Costanza

02-15-2006, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by bideau
Yeah, who woulda thunk it....polite Mormons :blink:

Ok, now you did it, I am offended.

Just kidding.

That is a joke, right? I have never met an unpolite one, and I am surrounded (at Church, anyway)

RoadGrader

02-15-2006, 02:18 PM

I wonder if this thread will receive a post from our own Planet member, GOD?

and wouldn't it be ironic if he were a Mormon?

cka203

02-15-2006, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
Ok, now you did it, I am offended.

Just kidding.

That is a joke, right? I have never met an unpolite one, and I am surrounded (at Church, anyway)

Yes, that was a joke. :)

No worries...

Costanza

02-15-2006, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by mikiemo83
better people than I, I question to much stuff to truly be able to follow a particular religion. I guess I'm a regular doubting Thomas when it comes to this kind of response from someone who feels that strongly about their religion.

I like to look at it this way-- even if us Mormons are wrong, we have lived our lives with honor and respect for ourselves and each other. I am sure the Big Guy up there can dig that.

cka203

02-15-2006, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by RoadGrader
I wonder if this thread will receive a post from our own Planet member, GOD?

and wouldn't it be ironic if he were a Mormon?

:LOL: ROFL

YEAH! I wonder where he's been? Maybe he's getting off on reading what we have to say about him, and is deferring posting until the very last...???

;)

Moebius

02-15-2006, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by bideau
Yeah, who woulda thunk it....polite Mormons :blink:

What, you insinuating Mormons aren't polite? Yeah?!?! Well you can take that politeness and shove it up your arse, buddy.

had to happen

Costanza

02-15-2006, 02:21 PM

Alcoholic 9 is the one with the dancing Mormon in his avatar, anyway. So he's the nerd.

*edit* I think it's funny how a religion thread is competing with a girlie thread.:cool:

Ras

02-15-2006, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Claremonster
.....Anyway, it kinda soured me on the whole "organized religion" thing. So, now I follow the spiritual path of my ancestors, and I'm happy - it's an individual thing.
What tribe were your ancestors. I have Franco/Canuck ancestry and found out one of my ancestors was burned at the stake by the Iroquois.

cka203

02-15-2006, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
Alcoholic 9 is the one with the dancing Mormon in his avatar, anyway. So he's the nerd.

*edit* I think it's funny how a religion thread is competing with a girlie thread.:cool:

psst - jh - if Alc's avatar is a Mormon, I don't think I'd be admitting it and putting myself in the same company. ;)

And as far as competing with the girlie thread, well... I think we have a ways to go here before we can truly compete.

But I catch your drift...

:)

Alcoholic9*

02-15-2006, 02:34 PM

I think I read somewhere that Napoleon Dynamite was written by a pair of Mormons as well. FREAKS! :D

I wonder if the missionaries have any idea that by coming to my house the other day... Somewhere, in the far corners of cyberspace, there's a 15 page (so far) topic they helped create. On such an obscure place like a Patriots messageboard too.

Guess I did know someone in the "neighborhood" who could use an uplifting message afterall. :D

Costanza

02-15-2006, 02:34 PM

See, the work of God! hee hee

I've never seen Neoploian Dynamite, so I wouldn't know.:huh:
I heard it is stupid when you first watch it, but then it grows on you.

cka203

02-15-2006, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
See, the work of God! hee hee

I've never seen Neoploian Dynamite, so I wouldn't know.:huh:
I heard it is stupid when you first watch it, but then it grows on you.

I've never seen it, either, but the pic's enough for me! ;)

cka203

02-15-2006, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Alcoholic9

I wonder if the missionaries have any idea that by coming to my house the other day... Somewhere, in the far corners of cyberspace, there's a 15 page (so far) topic they helped create. On such an obscure place like a Patriots messageboard too.

Guess I did know someone in the "neighborhood" who could use an uplifting message afterall. :D

Aye, God works in mysterious ways... ;) :D

Alcoholic9*

02-15-2006, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
Neoploian

Wow what a hatchet job on "Napoleon" that was. If I didn't like you so much that would have ended up in my sig. ;) :p

Costanza

02-15-2006, 02:42 PM

That was my 3rd try!

Umm, I was talking to the kids, yeah, that's the ticket!

mikiemo83

02-15-2006, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
*edit* I think it's funny how a religion thread is competing with a girlie thread.:cool: well it is competing with the girlie pict and Lost, so maybe the two together are trying to tell me to get my sorry arse to church and stop worshipping false gods- both are fake, they girls breast and the show or would that make it all 3 are fake?

cka203

02-15-2006, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by mikiemo83
well it is competing with the girlie pict and Lost, so maybe the two together are trying to tell me to get my sorry arse to church and stop worshipping false gods- both are fake, they girls breast and the show or would that make it all 3 are fake?

Maybe God's saying the girlie thread should get lost.... ;)

j/k!

Moebius

02-15-2006, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
That was my 3rd try!

Umm, I was talking to the kids, yeah, that's the ticket!

Now, now, you know us Mormons ain't supposed to lie. :D

Costanza

02-15-2006, 02:48 PM

Church, boobs, and television? It could be interpreted as that. But isn't that what this thread is all about? Interpretation? (see, I spell important words correctly).

Hey, it was more of a half-truth there Moeb.

Benign Despot

02-15-2006, 03:03 PM

The Girlie pic thread is and appreciative ode to some of gods most enticing creations (ok - some are occasionally enhanced by the had of man)

RoadGrader

02-15-2006, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Jheavner
Church, boobs,.... speaking of that and like the girlie picture thread.....

has there ever been a The Girls of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir pictorial spread in Playboy?

cka203

02-15-2006, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Benign Despot
The Girlie pic thread is and appreciative ode to some of gods most enticing creations (ok - some are occasionally enhanced by the had of man)

Ah, so tho you doubt, you still have something to be thankful for! ;)

TommyD420

02-15-2006, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by RoadGrader
speaking of that and like the girlie picture thread.....

has there ever been a The Girls of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir pictorial spread in Playboy?

I wasn't aware women were IN the Mormon Tabernacle Choir...In which case...that would make for an interesting Playboy :D

(Think I meantioned this earlier...Catholic, and yes STILL Catholic...more than happy to answer your questions to the best of my ability...No, I don't follow the religion to the letter, and yes, I have some seperate beliefs than the church does...but I still go; because I think that the Catholic Church is just "behind the times" and maybe a little outdated...i'm assuming they'll catch up eventually...JPII Did more than any Pope in history on Advancing and Modernizing the Chuch's beliefs...not sure how the nw guy will do...)

:Pat:

Claremonster

02-15-2006, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Ras-Al-Ghul
What tribe were your ancestors. I have Franco/Canuck ancestry and found out one of my ancestors was burned at the stake by the Iroquois.

Interesting. Probably one of my ancestors what done it heh heh heh... Prolly tasted like chicken. :D

Yup. My family is Franco-Canuck, Abenaki, and Mohawk (english tribal names used so's not to confuse anyone...)...

Moebius

02-15-2006, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by TommyD420
I wasn't aware women were IN the Mormon Tabernacle Choir...

It's not the Vienna Boys Choir we're talking about here. The choir is open to men and women (as long as they can sing). I've known a few folks in the choir from time to time.

Moebius

02-15-2006, 07:06 PM

Wow, 3 hours without a post. Are we running out of religious material?

Wandering Athol

02-15-2006, 08:21 PM

The very end of this video summarizes my views on religion quite nicely: ;)

http://www.sonypictures.com/movies/talladeganights/

pookie

02-15-2006, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Moebius
It's not the Vienna Boys Choir we're talking about here. The choir is open to men and women (as long as they can sing). I've known a few folks in the choir from time to time.

You were a tenor right Moebs?

cka203

02-16-2006, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by Wandering Athol
The very end of this video summarizes my views on religion quite nicely: ;)

http://www.sonypictures.com/movies/talladeganights/

"Help me, Tom Cruise!" ROFL ROFL

cka203

02-16-2006, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by TommyD420
(Think I meantioned this earlier...Catholic, and yes STILL Catholic...more than happy to answer your questions to the best of my ability...No, I don't follow the religion to the letter, and yes, I have some seperate beliefs than the church does...but I still go; because I think that the Catholic Church is just "behind the times" and maybe a little outdated...i'm assuming they'll catch up eventually...JPII Did more than any Pope in history on Advancing and Modernizing the Chuch's beliefs...not sure how the nw guy will do...)

:Pat:

Well, there seem to be many Catholics here, in addition to yourself, so I'll ask a question of you all.....

I *think* it was mgo who said something like there really wasn't much difference between the Catholic beliefs and other Christian denominations.

However, I've always had the impression that there were major differences between Catholics and Protestants. (not saying I personally have problems with Catholics, just that I've always gotten that impression from the churches I've been to)

I think one of the differences is the emphasis Catholics put on Mary, whereas the Protestants prefer Jesus (for lack of a better way of stating that). Put another way, I'm of the impression that Catholics pray to Mary, Protestants pray to Jesus.

So, what IS the deal with Mary? :huh:

Benign Despot

02-16-2006, 06:59 AM

Recovering Catholic here.

Catholics pray to both Jesus, and to the Saints (Who are not considered divine, but the have Gods ear - think of them as lobbyists)

Mary is kind of an uber-saint.

The actual religious teaching of the Roman Catholic church are not all that different. It was the corruption and beaurocracy during the middle ages that lead to the reformation.

bideau

02-16-2006, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by cka203
Well, there seem to be many Catholics here, in addition to yourself, so I'll ask a question of you all.....

I *think* it was mgo who said something like there really wasn't much difference between the Catholic beliefs and other Christian denominations.

However, I've always had the impression that there were major differences between Catholics and Protestants. (not saying I personally have problems with Catholics, just that I've always gotten that impression from the churches I've been to)

I think one of the differences is the emphasis Catholics put on Mary, whereas the Protestants prefer Jesus (for lack of a better way of stating that). Put another way, I'm of the impression that Catholics pray to Mary, Protestants pray to Jesus.

So, what IS the deal with Mary? :huh:

Catholics not only pray to Mary, but to any of the thousands of saints as well. Catholics pray to these saints so they will intervene, on their behalf, to God. This is one of the major differences between most of the Protestant denominations and the Catholic/Orthodox denominations. In the Protestant churches, you will never find a statue/symbol to anyone other than Christ. They believe that praying to saints is akin to worshipping false idols. That may be an oversimplification. But from my experience of converting from Catholicism to Congregationalist, that was the most striking thing to me.

From a ceremony aspect, protestants put a much bigger emphasis on the sermon while Catholics emphasize the traditional ceremonies. My biggest shock the first time I went to my wife's church was the length of the sermon. I damned near fainted from fatigue :p I was used to 5 minute sermons, sometimes none at all. The emphasis for the Catholic mass is Holy Communion.

Protestants also take their music much more seriously. Again, I was used to simple organ music that really wasn't much more inspiring that John Kiley at a Bruins game. Got to my wife's church and there's a full choir, all the song verses are sung and the whole congregation sings along.

From an administrative aspect, Protestant churches are much more self-governing. The follow general guidelines of a national or world council, but the individual churches do not answer to higher authorities. The Pastor is the focal point of the church and he guides the church with the assistance of some type of council made up of church members.

Of course, these are generalalities and some denominations will vary. But that's my overall impression...having been put through Catholic schools and becoming a member of a Congregational church after I got married.

Hawg73

02-16-2006, 07:37 AM

When I was a teenager one of my best friends was a Protestant and I can remember my father being disgusted with that fact even though I never saw him set foot in a Catholic Church.

I got curious as to why he was so worked up over it and ended up going to a Protestant service with my buddy. It was a lot like a Catholic service only more layed back and seemed to make more sense to me, especially the fact that his minister was married and had kids.

I guess the root of my Father's disgust was really because I was born into a Boston Irish Catholic family (this area is silly with them) and the Catholics and Protestants have been clashing for centuries in Ireland.

I can't say I really understand why, but I have heard one of the roots of the conflict is because Protestants can use rubbers and safely get layed whenever they want and Catholics are (or were) only supposed to boink with a round in the chamber.

Which seems like a perfectly valid reason for the Catholics to down a couple of pints and pick up a shillelagh to crush some skulls.

I really need to study up on this stuff someday.

dchester

02-16-2006, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by bideau
Catholics not only pray to Mary, but to any of the thousands of saints as well. Catholics pray to these saints so they will intervene, on their behalf, to God. This is one of the major differences between most of the Protestant denominations and the Catholic/Orthodox denominations. In the Protestant churches, you will never find a statue/symbol to anyone other than Christ. They believe that praying to saints is akin to worshipping false idols. That may be an oversimplification. But from my experience of converting from Catholicism to Congregationalist, that was the most striking thing to me.

From a ceremony aspect, protestants put a much bigger emphasis on the sermon while Catholics emphasize the traditional ceremonies. My biggest shock the first time I went to my wife's church was the length of the sermon. I damned near fainted from fatigue :p I was used to 5 minute sermons, sometimes none at all. The emphasis for the Catholic mass is Holy Communion.

Protestants also take their music much more seriously. Again, I was used to simple organ music that really wasn't much more inspiring that John Kiley at a Bruins game. Got to my wife's church and there's a full choir, all the song verses are sung and the whole congregation sings along.

From an administrative aspect, Protestant churches are much more self-governing. The follow general guidelines of a national or world council, but the individual churches do not answer to higher authorities. The Pastor is the focal point of the church and he guides the church with the assistance of some type of council made up of church members.

Of course, these are generalalities and some denominations will vary. But that's my overall impression...having been put through Catholic schools and becoming a member of a Congregational church after I got married. As a Protestant (Baptist), I would agree with this as well.

As an outsider looking in, it appears to me that Catholics seem to worship people (in addition to God), whereas we only worship God (and of course Christ). In a Baptist church, even the Pastor or Minister is just a man, and can be fired by the congregation (usually done via the council of elders). It appears to me that Catholic priests, cardinals, popes, etc are held in such high regard by their congregation, that it enabled some of the problems that have become public as of late.
________
Highway Hi-Fi (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Highway_Hi-Fi)

mikiemo83

02-16-2006, 07:55 AM

Many catholic churches also have more than organ music, the Paulist center in Boston, next to the commons used to have a wide array of musical instruments, I have seen a full band from drums/ percussion right up to violins to electric/acoustic guitars there over the years I went. In addition, a couple of churches in stoughton also do a little more. One, I think still has a teen mass with a full band, haven't talk to one of the singers in a while. The other, I know changed recently but the music was definitely worth attending for per my 8 year old neice - new priest pays much less attention to music so that may be quite different now.

back to the paulist center, the church was great because the variety of people that attended, anyone from the guy sleeping on the bench out front to someone coming from beacon hill . I found this church along with arch street in boston as the most truthful churches as a kid, unlike the affluent churches around my home. I enjoyed seeing all the classes mix and brought together to rejoice not look down on each other.

bideau

02-16-2006, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by Hawg73
When I was a teenager one of my best friends was a Protestant and I can remember my father being disgusted with that fact even though I never saw him set foot in a Catholic Church.

I got curious as to why he was so worked up over it and ended up going to a Protestant service with my buddy. It was a lot like a Catholic service only more layed back and seemed to make more sense to me, especially the fact that his minister was married and had kids.

I guess the root of my Father's disgust was really because I was born into a Boston Irish Catholic family (this area is silly with them) and the Catholics and Protestants have been clashing for centuries in Ireland.

I can't say I really understand why, but I have heard one of the roots of the conflict is because Protestants can use rubbers and safely get layed whenever they want and Catholics are (or were) only supposed to boink with a round in the chamber.

Which seems like a perfectly valid reason for the Catholics to down a couple of pints and pick up a shillelagh to crush some skulls.

I really need to study up on this stuff someday.

My mother once called my marriage a "mixed marriage". She didn't say it in a cruel manner, just matter of fact. Another couple we knew had the same dynamic. When the husband decided to join her church, his mother refused to go to the service. She went to the reception afterwards and acted like it was a funeral.

For the record, my mother gladly attended the service when I was accepted as a congregation member.

Funny story....my parents were divorced after 33 years of marriage. A few years later, my father was getting remarried but needed to have the first marriage annulled in order to get married in the church. But my mother had to agree to it. She was asked by the priest to swear that the first marriage was not legitimate and was never valid. My mother took a deep breath and said (parphrasing): "by doing that, I'm saying that my seven children were not born out of love and are illegitimate. So you can take your annullment and stick it up your ass."

My mother is not a woman to be messed with :p

mikiemo83

02-16-2006, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by bideau
My mother once called my marriage a "mixed marriage". She didn't say it in a cruel manner, just matter of fact. Another couple we knew had the same dynamic. When the husband decided to join her church, his mother refused to go to the service. She went to the reception afterwards and acted like it was a funeral.

For the record, my mother gladly attended the service when I was accepted as a congregation member.

Funny story....my parents were divorced after 33 years of marriage. A few years later, my father was getting remarried but needed to have the first marriage annulled in order to get married in the church. But my mother had to agree to it. She was asked by the priest to swear that the first marriage was not legitimate and was never valid. My mother took a deep breath and said (parphrasing): "by doing that, I'm saying that my seven children were not born out of love and are illegitimate. So you can take your annullment and stick it up your ass."

My mother is not a woman to be messed with :p yeah, the mixed marriage thing is funny, I have heard that also because wife was catholic first but her family changed to protestant. I have an aunt that will not talk to any relatives not married in the catholic church, I am the only exception based on my mom being sick and I was always her favorite - she will not even go into their house. It is worse if you are living in sin and not married. she is a born again, clinic marching, holyland trip taker who means the best.

as for the getting annulled and needing the "ok" of the ex partner,what if he/she is a spitfull, good liar who tells a different acount than the one already told. Or what if that person still has some feelings or is jealous because the other has found happiness. to many variables for me. in addition how can a person never married tell you if you tried or not. My parents marriage was not annulled because after a seperation period they tried again and last 5 years before, in my fathers own words, he screwed up. the Church said no to my mother because their must have been something there or she would not have taken him back - guess it is better not to try for the children.

hope no one thinks I am bitter at the church, actually these things I have posted make my laugh as I type them, I find it is easier to laugh about them than to dwell and get angry. I don't get angry much any more, not my thing after having 2 healthy kids, I realize how lucky I have been because one of my best friends has 3 handicap kids - one in a wheel chair - neck broken at birth, 2 others with hearing loss

BradyGirl

02-16-2006, 09:08 AM

Sorry, but when someone mentioned karma several pages back I immediately thought of that new show, My Name Is Earl. :D Actually, I don't know if Earl is religious or not, but he won the lottery and then got hit by a car and decided that karma was telling him to make right what he'd done wrong (mostly stealing and other petty crimes). In fact, last week he ran over a bus stop sign and promised to fix it but met this pretty lady professor and kept putting it off but karma said, uh, uh, and kept throwing Frisbees and other stuff at him to remind, fix the bus stop sign! :p It's a pretty good show and I recommend it.

As for Catholics worshipping people, the party line is you only worship God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, but Mary and the other saints are intermediaries with the Trinity, especially Mary to Jesus because what good son can refuse his mother? :D

I left the Church because I was tired of being a second-class citizen as a female, and was appalled at their treatment of gays, people who married more than once, and other issues. I mean, maybe centuries ago staying married forever worked because you probably croaked at 40 but now people are living a lot longer and they just grow apart sometimes. It's like falling in or out of love. You can't help it, it just happens, but the Church (like a lot of other religions) have to lay the guilt trip on you for divorcing. It's basically a power trip. How a bunch of celibate (ha, ha) guys who have never married or mostly likely ever had a job in the 'real world' can relate to the average Catholic is beyond me. Like when the Pope and others pontificate on sexual matters involving birth control and not a single female is in on the conferences. Or their denial of women the morning-after pill after they've been *raped*, for crying out loud! I just shake my head and say, "Thank Goddess I'm outta that church!" :cool:

cka203

02-16-2006, 09:15 AM

Okay, I understand what's been said thus far, regarding the differences between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints, who they believe act as intermediaries to Jesus and God - Protestants pray directly to Jesus and God, not Mary or Saints. Also understand the differences in music, rituals, sermons, etc., as you all have expressed above.

Here's another question for you.....

I've heard that when the Catholics partake of Communion, they believe the bread and grape juice actually turns into the body and blood of Christ; whereas we Protestants see them as symbols of the body and blood of Christ. True?

mikiemo83

02-16-2006, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by cka203
I've heard that when the Catholics partake of Communion, they believe the bread and grape juice actually turns into the body and blood of Christ; whereas we Protestants see them as symbols of the body and blood of Christ. True? grape juice? those guys are hitting the sauce ma'am, no grape juice around here.

bideau

02-16-2006, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by cka203
Here's another question for you.....

I've heard that when the Catholics partake of Communion, they believe the bread and grape juice actually turns into the body and blood of Christ; whereas we Protestants see them as symbols of the body and blood of Christ. True?

Only the priest partakes in the "grape juice". The parishioners only get the wafer.

Yes, Catholic doctrine says that the wafer and wine become the body and blood of Christ during the liturgy. There are sincere Catholics who do believe this, but the large majority of them just don't think about it too much.

That's the principle reason why non-Catholics are not allowed to take communion during mass. A person must publicly acknowledge that they believe the doctrine.

Another big difference is that in the Protestant churches, a member of the church receives their first communion during confirmation (at least Congregationalists). In the Catholic church, First Communion is in 2nd grade (at least it was in 1967) and Confirmation is later, around 9th grade.