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dchester
11-08-2005, 11:22 AM
OK, it's obvious that Belichick needs our help. So let's hear some ideas on how to fix things.

My two cents:

The weak link is clearly the secondary, and anyone that's on the street right now isn't likely to help us. We don't have any corners that can cover a number 1 receiver (BTW, not sure if anyone can cover a number 2 receiver either), and the safeties aren't aggressive enough.

Starks has been a bust, so there's no sense in starting him at the corner any longer, and since he's not particularly physical, he's no use at safety either. The nickelback is the only place I see him having a chance at.

Assante Samuel is the only one that's hitting out there, so I would try him at safety. Randall Gay gets one corner, and that leave Ellis Hobbs for the other corner.

You might question placing the rookie, Hobbs, in a high risk position like corner, but at this point, how much worse can he do?


OK, it's time for others to chime in. Belichick needs your help.
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PA_PATS_FAN54*
11-08-2005, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by dchester
OK, it's obvious that Belichick needs our help. So let's hear some ideas on how to fix things.

My two cents:

The weak link is clearly the secondary, and anyone that's on the street right now isn't likely to help us. We don't have any corners that can cover a number 1 receiver (BTW, not sure if anyone can cover a number 2 receiver either), and the safeties aren't aggressive enough.

Starks has been a bust, so there's no sense in starting him at the corner any longer, and since he's not particularly physical, he's no use at safety either. The nickelback is the only place I see him having a chance at.

Assante Samuel is the only one that's hitting out there, so I would try him at safety. Randall Gay gets one corner, and that leave Ellis Hobbs for the other corner.

You might question placing the rookie, Hobbs, in a high risk position like corner, but at this point, how much worse can he do?


OK, it's time for others to chime in. Belichick needs your help.

Hell D you posted the only viable option.

we don't have much to work with....guess I agree 100% with your 2 cents.

BizarroAnnihilus
11-08-2005, 11:44 AM
Yep, agreed also. Love to see Hobbs back there more.

Benign Despot
11-08-2005, 11:55 AM
Seymour MUST get heathy as a key to slowing the run and getting preasure.

Blitzing with this D-backfield is high risk and can't be done against a top QB.

Wilfork is getting handled on on one.

My prescription, which is hardly a cure all starts with Big Sey's retutn.

Switch to a base 4-3, put Willie's hand on the ground. Bruschi in the middle, A rotation of Colvin, Vrable and Brown (at his natural position) outside. Green & McGinnist at the ends, Seymour and Warren inside (spelled by Wilfork).

The D-backfield remains a mess. I would start Gay and Samuel at the corners, Wilson and Don Davis at safety on running downs, Starks at safety on passing downs, Hobbs in the nickel. Hope the fron 4 can put preassure on the QBs.

my .02 and probably not even worth that

Hawg73
11-08-2005, 03:00 PM
The first thing that came to mind is that there doesn't seem to be many viable options left.

It's not like we have a bunch of talented reserves caught in a numbers crunch.

I'd be in favor of giving Gay more time at safety and benching Starks for Hobbs and leaving Assante at corner.

If he had a decent pair of hands that game last night might have turned out a bit differently after he missed an end zone INT.

For the defensive line I'd start rotating Mike Wright with VW and whoever else needs a breather. He might not be much at the moment, but could be decent in time and those guys are getting ground down.

Another puzzling thing is the disappearance of Tully Banta-Cain. I thought he did well in cameos and was an up n'comer but he is never on the field anymore. Strictly special teams.

I'd use him at 3rd down pass situation LOLB in place of McGinest.

Chad Brown could also be used in that role since he is still working hard and is better suited to the outside.

I think Willie needs fewer snaps. They all do, but some of these ideas might help get them some by getting the opponents off the field.

I't wasn't much, but it's all I have to work with.

dchester
11-08-2005, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Hawg73
For the defensive line I'd start rotating Mike Wright with VW and whoever else needs a breather. He might not be much at the moment, but could be decent in time and those guys are getting ground down. I think this is a great idea. Big Vince looks to be getting gassed at times.

I hope Belichick is monitoring this forum.
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grog
11-08-2005, 03:31 PM
How do we fix our problem? TOs baby, as in Turn Overs. (not as in an idiot WR).

Good defenses create them, plus sometimes get a few lucky ones. I don't think we've gotten a lucky one all year and have created only about 5 or 6.

But since a team can't control when a TO is going to occur, we've got to make some changes. I like the Hobss idea and at least he'll bring energy and enthusiam to the game.

RoadGrader
11-08-2005, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by dchester
OK, it's obvious that Belichick needs our help. So let's hear some ideas on how to fix things.



dmachine.....

the first thing I'd do if I were you is bring the entire secondary in for a little "rubber hose & phone-book" interrogation.

another thing....is it me or does it seem as if all our secondary guys are like 6 - 8" shorter than our opponent's receivers. cripes Assante Samuel looked shorter than Marvin Harrison and he's what, 5' 8" tall?

cripes.....lets strap some of these guys in a rack and stretch 'em out.....wait...let's strap Starks in just because.

PatsWin2002
11-08-2005, 03:47 PM
We need Seymour back badly. He would've been a big help last night.

Do you think the Pats are underplaying his injury? He was "definitely" going to play last week.

As for the other injuries.....I'm hopeful for guys like Matt Light that may return for a stretch run, but without Rodney it sure looks futile.

dchester
11-08-2005, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by PatsWin2002
We need Seymour back badly. He would've been a big help last night.

Do you think the Pats are underplaying his injury? He was "definitely" going to play last week.

As for the other injuries.....I'm hopeful for guys like Matt Light that may return for a stretch run, but without Rodney it sure looks futile. From everything I've heard, it's the same as the injury he had last year, and he was out 6 weeks last year with it.
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ENFORCER
11-08-2005, 04:01 PM
When Seymour comes back we have to move to the 4-3 and attack..A great pass rush will help a struggling secondary alot.

We also need a set seconday lineup. ID love to see Hobbs out their more, instead of Starks. Wilson is struggling...big time. Everyone looks confused...more game time can help that

Spinal Tap
11-08-2005, 04:05 PM
I don't believe that this situation can be fixed this season. I'm convinced that the loss of Weiss & Crennel are having a far more profound impact on this team than people are acknowledging.

How does this team go from first to worst on defense??? It's not just Harrison. It's certainly not just Ted Johnson. Seymour didn't play in last year's playoff games and the defense was stout regardless.

I would be more apt to blame injuries and schedule if the defense just wasn't AS GOOD as it has been in the past. This defense is one of the league's worst. That's a fact. I'm so damn frustrated watching a team that cannot play defense.

T-ShirtDynasty
11-08-2005, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by ENFORCER
When Seymour comes back we have to move to the 4-3 and attack..A great pass rush will help a struggling secondary alot.
Agree with you. Never been a big fan of switching to a predominant 4-3 but the problem is that Big Vince is having his lunch handed to him on a regular basis. The nose has GOT to draw a double team in a 3-4 to keep the guards tied up, and Vince isn't getting it done ...being handled quite easily by the center alone.

And as far as Starks... I've been trying, and trying and trying to give him the benefit of the doubt here... but after the whole "not being put in the postition to make plays" comments, I'm fine with him keeping that bench warm unless we really NEED a warm body in nickle and dime situations.

I like DC's idea of trying Assante at safety, but a rookie corner on one side, and an injured Blue on the other side makes me pretty nervous. Heck, at this point, I'd be willing to stick Starks on IR and activate Ventrone from the PS. Hell, how much worse could the secondary be?

dchester
11-08-2005, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Spinal Tap
I don't believe that this situation can be fixed this season. I'm convinced that the loss of Weiss & Crennel are having a far more profound impact on this team than people are acknowledging.

How does this team go from first to worst on defense??? It's not just Harrison. It's certainly not just Ted Johnson. Seymour didn't play in last year's playoff games and the defense was stout regardless.

I would be more apt to blame injuries and schedule if the defense just wasn't AS GOOD as it has been in the past. This defense is one of the league's worst. That's a fact. I'm so damn frustrated watching a team that cannot play defense. Don't let Pioli off the hook either. The signings this past offseason were awful. A third round pick for Starks??? Another pick for Andre Davis??? Monty Beisel, Chad Brown? At this point, I'm starting to wish they had paid Ty Law.
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ENFORCER
11-08-2005, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by T-ShirtDynasty
.

I like DC's idea of trying Assante at safety, but a rookie corner on one side, and an injured Blue on the other side makes me pretty nervous. Heck, at this point, I'd be willing to stick Starks on IR and activate Ventrone from the PS. Hell, how much worse could the secondary be?


Assante got burnt bad last night 2... Eugene Wilson is reacting too late on plays.

I think as fans we got spoiled with having great Safety play and leadership from Harrison and Milloy.

T-ShirtDynasty
11-08-2005, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by ENFORCER
Assante got burnt bad last night 2... Eugene Wilson is reacting too late on plays.

I think as fans we got spoiled with having great Safety play and leadership from Harrison and Milloy. Yup, I think you're right. Anybody wanna rehash the "Rodney should have been Super Bowl MVP" argument? :) My god we're missing that man, without the glue, the patchwork isn't sticking together anymore.

Patti37
11-08-2005, 04:45 PM
I hate to be a pessimist but at this point I do not think there is anything you can do to fix the defense. The defense cannot be fixed until next year. (It would still be great to see Seymour out there but that doesn't solve all the problems.)

Four of our starting/back-up DB's are on IR. Michael freaking Stone was playing safety against the Colts last night. Who is Michael Stone? He wasn't playing for anyone before the Pats picked him.

Hank Poteat...Earwind Mooreland...would they make a difference. The problem is any DB that you pick up now is someone who is sitting at home waiting for a call. No one wanted them at the beginning of the season.

Unfortunately, we need to depend on the offense to win games. That puts this team in a difficult position. I have always believed that it is the defense that wins the big games.

That being said I still believe we will make the playoffs.

Patti37
11-08-2005, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by T-ShirtDynasty
Yup, I think you're right. Anybody wanna rehash the "Rodney should have been Super Bowl MVP" argument? :) My god we're missing that man, without the glue, the patchwork isn't sticking together anymore.

I don't want to rehash the argument but Rodney was my choice for MVP of the Super Bowl last year. I do not understand why defensive players get short changed in these situations.

I know I have said it a million and one times but it is near impossible to replace what he did on the field.

T-ShirtDynasty
11-08-2005, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Patti37
Michael freaking Stone was playing safety against the Colts last night. Who is Michael Stone? Oooh.... oooh... I know this one. He's the one that used to be with Mili Vanili, right?

:D

dchester
11-08-2005, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Patti37
I don't want to rehash the argument but Rodney was my choice for MVP of the Super Bowl last year. I do not understand why defensive players get short changed in these situations. You have a point about defensive players getting hosed. FWIW, I would have voted for Ty Law getting the MVP in SB36.

I know I have said it a million and one times but it is near impossible to replace what he did on the field. Possibly, but I still think the players they have, can do better than what they've shown (offense & defense). Just two plays going differently could have changed things (if Dillon doesn't fumble, & if Samuel makes the pick).

Maybe I'm a homer, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet.
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Mr NFLfan
11-08-2005, 06:52 PM
Its obvious that the loss of Crennel and Weiss is a factor. How much is purely a guess. We have so many injuries especially on "D" that it seems every week its another new guy or two back in the secondary. Dam hard to build any continuity like that. The Johnson decision to retire didn't help this team out much coming so late in the preseason but If I had to put my finger on the most costly loss to this defense I'd have to say Harrison is what hurt us the most. Trying to replace a player with his smarts, skill, leadership and just the big play type of safety he is dam near impossible. Harrison was the guy who held that secondary together last season when we were riddled with injury. I think we have reached into our bag of tricks so many times that we have finally reached the bottom of the bad and there are no more tricks to be had. This Defense just isn't fixable this season and if Harrison's injury is career ending its going to be tough on this team for yrs to come.
We have had a great run in NE and we NE fans should be dam proud of what Belichick and this team has accomplished and we may just have become spoiled because it has been so good. We may not be done in this decade but we are certainly done for this season.

Ras
11-08-2005, 11:30 PM
I heard that that Larry Wilson, Spider Lockhart, Mike Haynes are available.

Wandering Athol
11-10-2005, 04:14 AM
"Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parrish are not walking through that door gentlemen..." - the genius that brought us those outrageously hysterical :Celtics: of the late 1990s

I'd prefer the Pats had a hitter at SS, so I imagine that rules out my choice of Gay or Starks there. Asante's their best corner right now, so I can't see moving him over mid-season. I think we're going to see a lot more nickel with Asante & Gay at the corners, Starks/Hobbs nickle, and Wilson & "the Great Unknown" (spelled by Davis) at SS :rolleyes:. C'mon, doesn't anyone out there think we can convince "my man!" Otis Smith out of retirement for 11 or 12 games?

I think it's too early to give up on Wilfork and the 3-4 yet. However, once Seymour's back, if oppenents are still running the ball through the D like sheet through a goose, by Week 12 a change will have to be made. In McGinest's defense, playing DE with a cast on one hand (constant hand fighting with blockers) has got to bring up mention of the one-legged man in the kickass competition. I hear rumors Green's playing hurt as well.

Funny, all this talk about the D, and yet I think there's almost as much room for improvement on the offensive side of the ball, as well as special teams (especially return teams).

Thought for next year: bring in an offensive coordinator BB WTF? One of the first signs of over-confidence is the feeling that you can do it all yourself when you don't have to.

mikiemo83
11-10-2005, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Spinal Tap
How does this team go from first to worst on defense??? It's not just Harrison. It's certainly not just Ted Johnson. Seymour didn't play in last year's playoff games and the defense was stout regardless. losing harrison alone, no I don't see this happening, but the 2 -tedy situation, seymour injury, retirement of Phifer, lack of trust in the killer B's (biesel and Brown) and the multiple injuries to the CB's and safeties. not one of the listed would destroy your defense but the combination of those plus the D-line playing subpar will destroy a defense more than the loss of a coordinator. don't get me wrong Romeo hurts but even romeo couldn't get these guy over this hump, if he could Cleveland would have a top 5 defense

thomas144
11-10-2005, 08:04 AM
I don't actually see things getting any better in the foreseeable future. If you want an idea of what the Patriots will look like in 10 years, look at the Green Bay Packers right now.

You can talk all you want about fixing the defense in the off-season, but they need to find more depth at running back.

The coaching staff is in disarray. The loss of Crenell and Weis is a much bigger deal than we thought. Are they going to bring in a new offensive coordinator? Is Brady going to learn a new offense?

If I were Bob Kraft I'd probably be thinking about selling the team.

grog
11-10-2005, 08:24 AM
A lot of doom and gloom in this thread. I don't think it is nearly as hopeless as you guys are making it out to be. Here's why.

We have one of the youngest defensive lines in the league, and each one of them has the potential to be a big star, if they are not already. They have not played as well as we would have liked to see this year, but that is as much due to the domino affect of our weakened LB's and DB's.

As for the LB's, they are starting to get a little long in the tooth. Willie doesn't have much left in the tank, Tedy and Vrabel are good for a couple more seasons tops and Colvin is starting to play OK and has a little longer shelf life but not much. To me, this is the area we need to rebuild the most by drafting some more of those undersized college DEs and converting them to LB's.

The DBs have played aweful, but I beleive there is a lot of talent there. I think Asante Samuel and Eugene Wilson will be solid for years to come. I like what little I have seen of Hobbs. Forget about Poole and Starks. Again, I think there is a lot of potential in our DBs but it wouldn't hurt to add another draft pick in this area next year.

Your wondering, then why have they played so poorly? The reason is that our defense has been so predictable this year. How do you make the defensive line play better - you blitz your linebackers more, keep the Oline guessing, and create plays. Same holds true for the DBs. Blitz and cause the QB to make mistakes. Some say we don't blitz because our DBs are so bad. I say that is all the more reason to blitz.

To fix things this year, we've got to become much less predictable on defense, otherwise we will see more of the same. This season is not lost yet. ( I want to go into a 'remember when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor rant, but I won't).

The future is still looking very bright to me and I'd rather be in the shape we are in with a stellar and young offense and a defense that will continue to improve than most any other team in the NFL. Draft needs are RB, LB, LB, DB, RB, DB

mikiemo83
11-10-2005, 08:29 AM
BB draft needs

1st round best available

2nd best available

3rd best available

4th best available

5th best available

6th best available QB

7th best available

thomas144
11-10-2005, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by grogsox
Draft needs are RB, LB, LB, DB, RB, DB

I agree with those draft needs but I think the glass is 3/4s empty.

I guess on the bright side:

1. good qb
2. good defensive line
3. good tight ends

4. they have shown that you don't need to spend tons of money on offensive linemen and wide receiver.

I think the season *is* lost. Let's put it this way: I won't even be watching them play this weekend. If I'm not mistaken, I think they will be in Miami, and if that's true, I fully expect them to lose.

thomas144
11-10-2005, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by mikiemo83
BB draft needs

1st round best available

2nd best available

3rd best available

4th best available

5th best available

6th best available QB

7th best available

Right, and then fill in any specific needs through free agency and trades. Right.

Hemi_1
11-10-2005, 08:35 AM
I agree with everything said there DC.

It would do wonders if we had any type of pressure on QBs.
I believe that when you give the QBs the amount of time we do it isnt going to matter how good your secodnary is. AFter four seconds there will be holes you can pass into.

mikiemo83
11-10-2005, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by thomas144
Right, and then fill in any specific needs through free agency and trades. Right. you are correct sir, I almost went TE in the 1sr round but I am not sure any are worthy of 1st round status. at least I don't know of any as outstanding as Graham and Waitsome

dchester
11-10-2005, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by grogsox
The future is still looking very bright to me and I'd rather be in the shape we are in with a stellar and young offense and a defense that will continue to improve than most any other team in the NFL. Draft needs are RB, LB, LB, DB, RB, DB I think the number 1 need is a quality cornerback (someone that can cover a #1 receiver), with second place being a tie between linebacker and safety.
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mikiemo83
11-10-2005, 09:08 AM
offensive line is young and hopefully neal/koppen can be signed this offseason to keep them together. I see a left to right line of light, Mankins, koppen,Neal and Kazur as a pretty good line for a few years with ashworth on the bench.

WR's are plentiful but we will see if Givens returns or Brown retires before thinking of adding to it

TE's seems like Graham is a player and Ben Waitsome (more) needs to get his consistancy level raised

QB no comment needed

RB a good back-up to take some of the load much like Larry Johnson in KC was doing for Holmes prior to injury.

DL. can never have enough but seems like we do not have to search for one

LB's big concern - too old and young talent has never been a BB search - hope the kid Ryan Claridge on IR is a player for next year

DB's seems like the biggest concern because it is. a draft like denvers this year would do wonders for this team. need a No. 1 cover corner and a hitter at safety. (move Wilson back to corner)

Kicker - seems like Adam has always been there but with Phily boosting Aikers what does Adam want? Will he get it or move on?

Leovigild
11-10-2005, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by thomas144
I don't actually see things getting any better in the foreseeable future. If you want an idea of what the Patriots will look like in 10 years, look at the Green Bay Packers right now.


Is this supposed to be bad news? Over the last ten years the Packers have seven playoff appearances, five divisional championships, two Super Bowl appearances and one Lombardi. If the Patriots achieve that over the next decade I'll be plenty happy.