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thomas144
07-05-2005, 09:16 AM
I really enjoyed this Frank Rich column in the Sunday Times. I particularly thought the comparison of now to the summer of 2001 was interesting, as I have had much the same thought (I put that paragraph in bold, but the whole column is interesting).




The Two Wars of the Worlds
By FRANK RICH
Published: July 3, 2005

ON the morning after George W. Bush spoke to the nation from Fort Bragg, Americans started marching off to Steven Spielberg's "War of the Worlds." Both halves of this double feature invoked 9/11, perfectly timed for this particular holiday. Ever since "Jaws," a movie set on the July Fourth weekend, broke box office records 30 summers ago, Independence Day has come to stand for terror as much as for freedom.

Decide for yourself if "War of the Worlds" is more terrifying than "Jaws." Either way, it's scarier than the president's speech. Yet the discrepancy between Mr. Spielberg's ability to whip up fear and Mr. Bush's inability isn't merely a matter of aesthetics. On Independence Day 2005, this terror gap is an ideal barometer for gauging the waning political power of a lame-duck president waging what increasingly looks like a lame-duck war.

As we saw on Tuesday night, doomsday isn't the surefire hit it used to be for Mr. Bush. Now that the rhetorical arsenal of W.M.D.'s and mushroom clouds is bare, he had little choice but to bring back that oldie but goodie, 9/11, as the specter of the doom that awaits us if we don't stay the course - his course - in Iraq. By the fifth time he did so, it was hard not to think of that legendary National Lampoon cover: "If you don't buy this magazine, we'll kill this dog."

Planned or not, the sepulchral silence of Mr. Bush's military audience was the perfect dazed response to what was literally a summer rerun. The president gave almost the identical televised address, albeit with four fewer 9/11 references, at the Army War College in Pennsylvania in May 2004. It's so tired that this time around even the normally sympathetic Drudge site gave higher billing to reviews of "War of the Worlds." Fewer TV viewers tuned in than for any prime-time speech in Mr. Bush's presidency. A good thing too, since so much of what he said was, as usual, at odds with reality. The president pledged to "prevent Al Qaeda and other foreign terrorists from turning Iraq into what Afghanistan was under the Taliban" a full week after Newsweek and The New York Times reported on a new C.I.A. assessment that the war may be turning Iraq into an even more effective magnet and training ground for Islamic militants than Afghanistan was for Al Qaeda in the 1980's and 90's.

"War of the Worlds" makes as many references to 9/11 as Mr. Bush did. The alien attack on America is the work of sleeper cells; the garments of the dead rain down on those fleeing urban apocalypse; poignant fliers are posted for The Missing. There is also a sterling American military that rides to the rescue. Deep in the credits for "War of the Worlds" is a thank-you to the Department of Defense and some half-dozen actual units that participated in the movie, from the Virginia Army National Guard to a Marine battalion from Camp Pendleton, Calif. Indeed, Mr. Spielberg seems to have had markedly more success in recruiting extras for his film than the Pentagon has had of late in drumming up troops for Iraq.

That's not the only way that "War of the Worlds" shows up Mr. Bush. In not terribly coded dialogue, the film makes clear that its Americans know very well how to distinguish a war of choice like that in Iraq from a war of necessity, like that prompted by Al Qaeda's attack on America. Tim Robbins - who else? - pops up to declare that when aliens occupy a country, the "occupations always fail." Even Tom Cruise's doltish teenage screen son is writing a school report on "the French occupation of Algeria."

Mr. Spielberg's movie illuminates, too, how Mr. Bush has flubbed the basic storytelling essential to sustain public support for his Iraq adventure. The president has made a tic of hammering in melodramatic movie tropes: good vs. evil, you're with us or you're with the terrorists, "wanted dead or alive," "bring 'em on," "mission accomplished." When you relay a narrative in that style, the audience expects you to stick to the conventions of the genre; the story can end only with the cavalry charging in to win the big final battle. That's how Mr. Spielberg deploys his platoons, "Saving Private Ryan"-style, in "War of the Worlds." By contrast, Mr. Bush never marshaled the number of troops needed to guarantee Iraq's security and protect its borders; he has now defined "mission accomplished" down from concrete victory to the inchoate spreading of democracy. To start off sounding like Patton and end up parroting Woodrow Wilson is tantamount to ambushing an audience at a John Wayne movie with a final reel by Frank Capra.

Both Mr. Bush's critics and loyalists at times misunderstand where his failure leaves America now. The left frets too much that the public just doesn't get it - that it is bamboozled by the administration and won't see the light until it digests the Downing Street memo. But even if they couldn't bring themselves to vote for John Kerry, most Americans do get it. A majority of the country view the Iraq war as "not worth it" and going badly. They intuitively sense that as USA Today calculated on Friday, there have been more U.S. military deaths (roughly a third more) in the year since Iraq got its sovereignty than in the year before. Last week an ABC News/Washington Post survey also found that a majority now believe that the administration "intentionally misled" us into a war - or, in the words of the Downing Street memo, that the Bush administration "fixed" the intelligence to gin up the mission.

Meanwhile, the war's die-hard supporters, now in the minority, keep clinging to the hope that some speech or Rovian stunt or happy political development in the furtherance of democratic Iraqi self-government can turn public opinion around. Dream on. The most illuminating of all the recent poll numbers was released by the Pew Research Center on June 13: the number of Americans who say that "people they know are becoming less involved emotionally" with news of the war has risen from 26 percent in May 2004 to 44 percent now. Like the war or not, Americans who do not have a relative or neighbor in the fight are simply tuning Iraq out.

The president has no one to blame but himself. The color-coded terror alerts, the repeated John Ashcroft press conferences announcing imminent Armageddon during election season, the endless exploitation of 9/11 have all taken their numbing toll. Fear itself is the emotional card Mr. Bush chose to overplay, and when he plays it now, he is the boy who cried wolf. That's why a film director engaging in utter fantasy can arouse more anxiety about a possible attack on America than our actual commander in chief hitting us with the supposed truth.

If anything, we're back where we were in the lazy summer of 2001, when the president was busy in Crawford ignoring an intelligence report titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States" and the news media were more preoccupied with a rash of "Jaws"-like shark attacks than with Al Qaeda. The sharks are back, and the "missing girl" drama of Natalee Holloway has echoed the Chandra Levy ur-text. Even the World Trade Center is making a comeback, if we are to believe that the new Freedom Bunker unveiled for ground zero might ever be built.

AS those on all sides of the Iraq argument have said, the only way for Mr. Bush to break through this torpor is to tell Americans the truth. Donald Rumsfeld did exactly that when he said a week ago that the insurgency in Iraq might last as long as 12 years. If that's so, then what? Go ahead and argue that pulling out precipitously or setting a precise exit timetable is each a bad option, guaranteeing that Iraq will become even more of a jihad central than this ill-conceived war has already made it. But what is Plan C?

Mr. Bush could have addressed that question honestly on Tuesday night. Instead of once more cooking the books - exaggerating the number of coalition partners, the number of battle-ready Iraqi troops, the amount of non-American dollars in the Iraq kitty - he could have laid out the long haul in hard facts, explaining the future costs in manpower, money and time, and what sacrifices he proposes for meeting them. He could have been, as he is fond of calling himself, a leader.

It was a blown opportunity, and it's hard to see that there will be another chance. Iraq may not be Vietnam, but The Wall Street Journal reports that the current war's unpopularity now matches the Gallup findings during the Vietnam tipping point, the summer of 1968. As the prospect of midterm elections pumps more and more genuine fear into the hearts of Republicans up for re-election, it's the Bush presidency, not the insurgency, that will be in its last throes. Is the commander in chief so isolated in his bubble that he does not realize this? G.W.B., phone home.

O_P_T
07-05-2005, 12:50 PM
I'll see your Frank Rich and raise you a Victor Davis Hanson (http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson070405.html)

July 4, 2005
Real Lesson of Vietnam
by Victor Davis Hanson
Tribune Media Services

Under fire, the president addressed the nation Tuesday night to reassure the American people that, for all the depressing news of bombings and death, we are winning the war and a free, democratic Iraq is key to Middle East salvation.

Just recently, Congress grilled administration officials over the costs of the war, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was again asked to resign. Meanwhile, President Bush had assured the visiting Iraqi prime minister that neither a timetable for U.S. withdrawal nor a cutoff of support is planned.

All this near panic arose from continual news of bombings, beheadings and chaos in Iraq. In the roller-coaster opinion polls, the good news of the January elections, Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon and an "Arab Spring" of reform is old, replaced by a long, hot summer for Americans in the Sunni Triangle.

The al Qaedists and former Ba'athists anticipate another impending U.S. retreat, like the 1984 flight from Lebanon or the 1993 exit from Somalia after the horrific dragging of American bodies in the streets of Mogadishu. Both pullouts, enshrined in al Qaeda propaganda, contributed to the pre-September 11, 2001, folklore that the United States lacked the stamina to defeat terrorists.

So the media-savvy terrorists have redirected their attacks yet again — back to American troops. Just last week, female Marines, who allay Iraqi unease over the searching of Iraqi women at checkpoints, were blown up aboard an armored truck returning to base from a checkpoint.

In response, the ghost of Vietnam is again being conjured. Given this tendency to compare the two wars, we really should re-examine the horror of Vietnam, specifically its final years.

By 1973, the goal of fashioning a South Korean-like, noncommunist entity in Indochina was supposedly obtained and the war over. The Paris peace agreements recognized two autonomous Vietnamese states. Almost all American prisoners were returned. The last few U.S. ground troops came home.

If the communist North, and its Soviet and Chinese patrons, saw 1973 as a breather rather than a peace, American officials at least promised the South material support and air cover if the communists reinvaded.

They did just that in spring 1975, barreling down Highway 1 with conventional Soviet tanks. Americans apparently did not want another quarter-century commitment to a second Demilitarized Zone to ward off a perpetual communist threat from the north. By 1974, a series of congressional acts radically cut funding of U.S. military support of South Vietnam. The Saigon government abruptly collapsed in April 1975.

More than a million refugees fled the south. Tens of thousands of boat people drowned or starved. Another million were either killed, imprisoned or sent to re-education camps. The Cambodia holocaust followed.

The perception of American weakness prompted communist adventurism from Afghanistan to Central America. Few in the Middle East thought there were any consequences to taking American hostages, or killing American soldiers and diplomats. The Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and Saddam Hussein alike little feared "the pitiful, helpless giant" (Richard Nixon's phrase).

There are lessons here. When the United States has stayed on after fighting dictatorial enemies — admittedly for decades in Italy, Germany, Japan, Korea and the Balkans — progress toward democracy and prosperity ensued. Disengagement from unresolved messy problems — whether from Europe after World War I, Vietnam in 1973, Beirut after the Marine barracks bombings, Afghanistan after the Soviet defeat, or Iraq in 1991 — only left murderous chaos or the "peace" of dictators.

Fighting sometimes intensifies just before the end. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant's horrible summer of 1864 almost broke the Union. The surprise of the Bulge cost more American lives than the 1944 drive from the Normandy beaches. Okinawa was not declared secure until a little more than two months before the Japanese surrender. It was the worst-thought-out campaign of the Pacific and cost about 50,000 American casualties.

Sacrifices are judged senseless by factors beyond sheer carnage. While we are, of course, tortured over the American dead of the Civil War, World War I and World War II, we nevertheless find solace that those lost ended slavery, restored the Union, stopped the kaiser, eliminated Adolf Hitler and Hideki Tojo, and made possible present-day South Korea.

On the other hand, we agonize as often over the much smaller losses of Vietnam, Beirut or Somalia precisely because we are not sure whether they led to any permanent improvement.

Those who evoke Vietnam should think carefully of the entire lesson of that tragedy. We hear daily how we once foolishly got into that chaos but rarely the lessons on how we got out.

This present war is not just about the Sunni Triangle, but whether reformers of the Arab world will step forward to emulate a fragile democratic Iraq that survives the jihadist counterassault. For the last three decades, Middle East autocratic regimes either attacked their neighbors or reached understandings with Islamic terrorists to shift blame for their own failures onto an apparently unconcerned United States.

That deeper pathology was at the root of the September 11, 2001, attacks on America. If not stopped now, it will result in many more attacks to come here at home.

thomas144
07-05-2005, 01:05 PM
Kind of weird column.

So if we pull out of Iraq, 30 years from now the President will be planning to attend a summit meeting in Iraq in 2006?

Undertaker #59
07-05-2005, 01:42 PM
Thomas,

The article was far too long for me to read. Do you have a summary?

thomas144
07-05-2005, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Undertaker #59
Thomas,

The article was far too long for me to read. Do you have a summary?

Just some interesting polling numbers about people tuning out the President and not really paying much attention to the war in Iraq.

BizarroAnnihilus
07-05-2005, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Undertaker #59
Thomas,

The article was far too long for me to read. Do you have a summary?

Annihilus was going to say the same thing. Far too large a post to read at this point in time.

Annihilus is sure it's interesting and meaningful, however.

thomas144
07-05-2005, 01:58 PM
The most illuminating of all the recent poll numbers was released by the Pew Research Center on June 13: the number of Americans who say that "people they know are becoming less involved emotionally" with news of the war has risen from 26 percent in May 2004 to 44 percent now. Like the war or not, Americans who do not have a relative or neighbor in the fight are simply tuning Iraq out.

O_P_T
07-06-2005, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by thomas144
Kind of weird column.

So if we pull out of Iraq, 30 years from now the President will be planning to attend a summit meeting in Iraq in 2006?

:confused:

Is the 2006 reference a typo?

Did you mean 2036?

If yes, are you suggesting that the only comparison to Vietnam and Iraq are that 30 years after the fact, the President will revisit that country?

The reason I post VDH's article is that the main thrust of Rich's column is that public support for the Iraq war is diminishing (correctly according to him) and without such support public opinion will force us to withdrawal.

VDH's point can be summed up in this paragraph.

There are lessons here. When the United States has stayed on after fighting dictatorial enemies — admittedly for decades in Italy, Germany, Japan, Korea and the Balkans — progress toward democracy and prosperity ensued. Disengagement from unresolved messy problems — whether from Europe after World War I, Vietnam in 1973, Beirut after the Marine barracks bombings, Afghanistan after the Soviet defeat, or Iraq in 1991 — only left murderous chaos or the "peace" of dictators.

Regardless of all the shoulda/coulda/woulda complaints, the fact of the matter is that Iraq is now the front lines in our confrontation with Islamic fundamentalism and their terrorists.

We face a simple choice.

Continue the fight until an Iraqi government can defend itself and/or it asks us to leave.

Or we slink home with our tail between our legs demonstrating yet again that we do not have the will to confront any enemy.

The latter will simply reinforce the perception of the US as a paper tiger and invite further attacks.

Is preventing such a perception "worth" the blood and treasure that continuing the fight in Iraq would entail?

Making this judgment requires that one balances the known present sacrifice against some future unknown sacrifice.

That is the judgment made in any war.

As VDH points out in the paragraph I cited, disengagement sustained a conflict and resulted in further attacks, whereas a sustained effort brought an end to the conflict.

The lesson of history suggests the best way to prevent another 9-11 is to sustain our efforts in Iraq.

That IMHO is worth it.

thomas144
07-06-2005, 01:57 PM
yes I meant 2036.

the thing is, we don't have the will to occupy a hostile foreign country for 12 years, which is why we shouldn't have gone in there in the first place.

O_P_T
07-06-2005, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by thomas144
the thing is, we don't have the will to occupy a hostile foreign country for 12 years, which is why we shouldn't have gone in there in the first place.

Well, let's break down this assertion.

occupy a hostile foreign country

The vast majority of Iraq is relatively tranquil. The Kurdish north and the Sheite south have minimal violence.

The vast majority of the violence occurs in the so called "Sunni triangle".

The insurgents there consist of two basic groups. Foreign fighters and disgruntled Sunni who wish to regain their position of power held under Saddam.

The Kurds and Sheite that now make up the government of Iraq are exercising far more political power than they ever did under Saddam, characterizing this as an "occupation" stretches the truth.

for 12 years

Ah yes the Rumsfeld quote.

It takes on a different light if one reads the

whole thing (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160716,00.html).

Second, the implication of the question was that we don't have enough to win against the insurgency. We're not going to win against the insurgency. The Iraqi people are going to win against the insurgency. That insurgency could go on for any number of years. Insurgencies tend to go on five, six, eight, 10, 12 years.

Coalition forces, foreign forces are not going to repress that insurgency. We're going to create an environment that the Iraqi people and the Iraqi security forces can win against that insurgency.


He indicated that insurgencies tend to drag on for an extened period of time. That is based on history and there is no reason to think that some level of unrest will not remain in Iraq for that period of time.

However, he was also clear that the goal of the US was to support the establishment of an Iraqi government and military that will defeat this insurgency with the support of the US.

Look at the various insurgencies in Latin America for an example of this.

The US doesn't "occupy" any of those countries, we simply support the friendly governments in their conflcit with the various insurgency groups.

thomas144
07-06-2005, 02:39 PM
ok sure, whatever. sounds great.

spiderman
07-06-2005, 03:20 PM
OPT - as usual great stuff :thumb:

Frank Rich is a former theater critic who happens to hate GW. He has about as much credibility as Ron Borges in my eyes.

Just because certain Americans may be losing their patience with the events occuring in Iraq doesn't, in and of itself, mean that we should leave.

I myself started a thread in this forum a few months ago stating that it is time for us to leave, but it's hard to argue with what you are saying.

Maybe we could just have a big concert and the whole problem will just go away. We could call it Live Iraq-aid, or something. o:-)

dchester
07-06-2005, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by thomas144
yes I meant 2036.

the thing is, we don't have the will to occupy a hostile foreign country for 12 years, which is why we shouldn't have gone in there in the first place. I have the will to be there as long as we were in Europe after WWII (oh yeah, we havn't left there yet either). Maybe it just takes longer some than some people think, but that doesn't mean it's not worth it.

Do you think Bush's biggest mistake is that he didn't think big enough. Maybe regime changes in Syria and Iran would have been helpful as well.
:eek:
________
Charmant (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Daihatsu_Charmant)

B A Rabbit
07-06-2005, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by dchester
Maybe regime changes in Syria and Iran would have been helpful as well.
:eek:

You sound as if there is no chance of this happening. "?" Include North Korea while your at it.

thomas144
07-07-2005, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by Supkem
You sound as if there is no chance of this happening. "?" Include North Korea while your at it.

North Korea doesn't have any oil. Syria and Iran don't have as much oil as Iraq. (actually I guess Syria doesn't have any?)

The last time I looked, the only country with oil reserves comparable to Iraq and Saudi Arabia is Canada. It seems like the annexation of Canada would be easy.